00:00:00 Jessica

Many times if we think of how we’ve designed our relationships, they’re not our own design. They’re the society or cultural design, or we design our relationships from parts of us that are more fearful than alive and inspired. So just exploring who’s designing your relationship or how you’ve been living relationships, and if you were to design it, not based on the fearful or grasping part or the ‘should’ parts, or the ‘should’ culture, from your authentic expression, what would that look like? Whether monogamous or polyamory or none of it.

00:00:45 Rosemary

This is the Gifts of Trauma Podcast. Stories of transformation and healing through compassionate inquiry. 

Welcome to the Gifts of Trauma podcast by Compassionate Inquiry. I’m Rosemary Davies-Janes and today I’m excited to bring you a new episode in our Relating Series. I have the honor of exploring the topic of polyamory with Jessica Fern, David Cooley and JP Ballhuis. Welcome everybody and thank you so much for being here today. How I’d like to start is briefly introducing each of you as your full bios are in the show notes and then I’ll ask you to expand what I share. Jessica, you’re an integrative therapist, coach and author who helps people cultivate secure, self led relationships with themselves and others through multiple approaches including Internal Family Systems, attachment theory, trauma recovery and relational psychology. Jessica, what would you like to add to that to help our audience get a sense of who you are?

00:01:54 Jessica

Yeah, just that my practice is an international practice and it’s really centered on people in all kinds of relationship, the full spectrum of relationship, which goes from monogamy to multi-partnered non monogamous relationships.

00:02:09 Rosemary

Thank you Jessica. That’s great, and welcome!.

00:02:12 Jessica

Thank you.

00:02:13 Rosemary

So happy to have you here. Now the co author of your two most recent books is also with us today, David Cooley. Welcome Dave. I’ll also introduce you briefly, and then invite you to add details. You’re a professional restorative justice facilitator, diversity and privilege awareness trainer, a bilingual cultural broker, and the creator of the Restorative Relationship Conversations model, a process that transforms interpersonal conflicts into deeper connection, intimacy and repair. Gosh, I’m looking forward to hearing about that. Dave, what would you like to add?

00:02:48 David
Just like Jessica, that I’m working within a wide range of relationships specifically focused on how do we show up to conflict, and really wanting to do two facets of that. One, teach people how to communicate in a different way when our nervous systems are activated in tense or threatening situations. And then two, how do we work with our nervous systems to find more regulation so that we can do those communication techniques more successfully.

00:03:18 Rosemary

Wonderful. Thank you.

00:03:20 David

Yeah, thanks for having me.

00:03:21 Rosemary

It’s our pleasure. Our next guest is a CI colleague, JP Bolhuis. Welcome, JP. I’ll continue with you in the same way that I started with Jessica and Dave by sharing that you are a CI practitioner,a Compassionate Inquiry practitioner and private mentor, a Certified Psychosocial Therapist and a close combat instructor. That’s not usually what comes up in our guests’ bios, so I’m looking forward to hearing about that too. I’d also like to share that you integrate your experiences with art, nature and martial arts into a holistic approach to trauma informed care and you believe that every day is an opportunity for learning and growth. JP, what else would you like our listeners to know about you?

00:04:06 JP

Thank you for having me. I’m based out of the Netherlands and what is really important for me is trauma awareness. And I also work in a homeless shelter and that’s something that really could use a lot of trauma awareness, and things are roughening up in our neck of the woods. Also, I want to share that I’m pretty new at this subject as I’m in a polyamorous relationship myself and I’m learning and, dying to learn, in fact. And also looking to see if it’s maybe possible to set up a focus group or if there isn’t any around the subject and looking forward to the questions and to dive deeper into the material and very curious. Also a little anxious. Thank you for having me.

00:04:48 Rosemary

How wonderful to have someone who’s navigating that territory. So please, if anything comes up with Jessica and Dave that you would like to ask a question, just jump right in. Now, in Compassionate Inquiry, we have a practice of setting an intention at the beginning of each session. And I’d love to invite all of you to share a few words about what you’d like to have shared or manifested in our time together today. Jessica, would you like to start?

00:05:15 Jessica

Yeah. The words that are coming to me, is beautiful. Having a beautiful, genuine conversation together that’s really supportive to the listeners.

00:05:25 Rosemary

Yeah. Thank you, Dave.

00:05:27 David

Yeah, I’m really feeling appreciative of JP’s share. Just naming the vulnerability of feeling anxious and excited and just what’s real and authentic in you right now. And so that level of vulnerability and openness I really want to amplify and stay grounded in for this conversation.

00:05:47 Rosemary

Thank you, Dave. JP, what’s your intention for today?

00:05:51 JP

Meeting with the utmost compassion my vulnerability indeed. And plus my uncomfortable sensations. And coming at an age where I’m really happy to be more authentic, as my whole life has seemed to have passed without that. And hoping to get a little bit of that home with me.

00:06:09 Rosemary

Thank you. That’s a beautiful intention. Now to frame up this conversation, being aware that a lot of people are not terribly familiar with this topic, myself included. I asked Google to define polyamory, and I can share the Google response. Or I could ask you, Jessica and Dave, authors on this topic, multi authors on this topic, to share your perspectives. What would you rather?

00:06:33 Jessica

I’d love to hear the Google response and then we can speak to it.

00:06:37 Rosemary

Yeah. And you may add to it or you may correct it, either way. So what Google said is polyamory is a relationship style where individuals have multiple loving, consensual and romantic relations at the same time with the full knowledge and consent of all partners. It involves open communication, trust, and mutual agreement. It’s not cheating because it’s not secretive. Polyamory emphasizes emotional and romantic connections, though sexual connections can also be a part of it. And it requires ongoing communication to navigate boundaries and potential jealousy. How does that land?

00:07:17 Jessica

I think that’s great. I think that’s a great definition, actually. And then just for the listeners, polyamory is really one type of non monogamy. So I actually would have used consensual non monogamy for that definition and which is an umbrella term for then several different styles underneath that. One is polyamory. Another would be swinging, another is open relationship. And there’s a bunch in there. 

00:07:46 Rosemary

Okay, great. Thank you. Dave, would you like to add anything to what Jessica said or what Google defined?

00:07:50 David

I think she’s alluding to something important which is the brilliant variety of ways that relationships manifest. I think that’s really what’s most exciting to me about the universe of ethical or consensual non monogamy, is just the vast way of thinking about relationships outside of a mononormative framework. So I think it’s a good starting point.

00:08:14 Rosemary

Thank you. JP, would you like to add anything?

00:08:17 JP

Since I’m really new at this, but, what seems to be coming up for me is how the social engagement is responding to me coming out with this kind of information, and my desires, and the responses to that. So there’s a whole bunch to learn and I think that’s a pocket in itself to be exploring.

00:08:38 Rosemary

Great, thank you so much. Now, as I researched for this show, and again, I am not knowledgeable at all on polyamory, I found a beautiful quote by Charles Eisenstein. It seems really to be the foundation of today’s conversation, and he said, “…to be truly seen and heard, to be truly known, is a deep human need”. And a little more research showed that these needs play out everywhere at work, in our friendships, our communities, and our romantic relationships. I followed that trail a little further and looked at work. Employees want more than perks or pay. They want to feel respected and recognized. And in friendships, the need to be seen and heard is just as strong. And in romantic relationships, when partners keep showing up for each other, choosing to really look, to really listen… Vulnerability feels safe and flaws can draw you closer. And this seemed related to Dave’s work. Even in conflict, you fight to understand, not to win. And you can feel free… I asked you to correct Google, you can correct me. Is this the correct foundation? Is this really what’s going on—or not?

00:09:45 David

Yeah, I think it’s a real invitation to lean into something that I think Is undeniably fundamental as a human being, which is, our quality of life is most determined by relationship. Could be defined like human life, I think, could be defined as relationship. And so whether it’s relationship to self, to other, to something bigger. Right, than interpersonal consciousness, I think what we’re being invited to look at is just the depth and breadth of relationship and how do we do that, in a way, with more awareness, more consciousness, more intentionality. And so I think that what’s exciting to me about the ethical, non monogamous journey, or exploration is it’s an invitation into more complexity, more depth on the relational field.

00:10:32 Rosemary

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And that sort of brings me to another observatio I made: the intimacy possible in the Compassionate Inquiry community is something I had never experienced before outside of biological family or chosen family. I was adopted at birth, so I mash the two together. My chosen family is somehow sometimes more close than my biological family. So I am wondering… I remember just that reference to social friends, workplace friends and colleagues and relationships. I was married to a man who publicly admitted that he was jealous of the people I worked with. He didn’t like me spending time away from him. He wanted to always be with me. So I’m wondering, is it not being understood by people in our primary relationship that draws people to polyamory? Is it something else? I’m curious about what attracts people to this lifestyle?

00:11:33 Jessica

There are several things that attract people to this, and many people just feel this is who they are. It’s not something, a lifestyle that they’re choosing. It feels like an orientation to how they are wired to be in their sexuality or their intimate relationships. So it just feels like a self expression. Yeah. And then there are many people that it might feel more like a lifestyle choice, like a certain diet or exercise regimen that we choose, but it fits them for whatever reason. And a lot of people come to it for philosophical reasons. They’re really challenging or seeing the limits of this mononormative – only two people together forever  – or a nuclear family – that doesn’t really serve anyone in the family very well when that’s the structure. So people are sort of realizing, like Dave was saying, we are social beings, and like you’re saying we’re meant to be seen and understood in a multiplicity of ways, and why is romantic love then the only thing that’s getting told it should be only one.

00:12:43 Rosemary

Yeah, I agree. Dave and JP. I’d love to hear from you, but what you’ve brought to mind is that I can’t remember the source, but it’s love is not like a pizza. It’s not like once those six slices are gone, there’s only six slices left. And that’s been my experience, being part of the Compassionate Inquiry community because there’s room for so many more really emotionally intimate relationships than I ever imagined was possible.

00:13:10 Jessica

Yeah. One of the non monogamous slogans would be love is infinite, but time isn’t. And that is something that becomes challenging when you have multiple partners is how to manage the time even though your heart might love everyone to infinity.

00:13:24 Rosemary

Yeah, agreed. Agreed. Yes, we have a lot longer on this planet than we used to, but it can seem like not enough.

00:13:31 JP

I kind of fell into it, honestly, and I had always been curious about it and I had a relationship with a woman and another woman came into my life. And so we ended up with the three of us at one point. And then my girlfriend decided she didn’t want to pursue that and so we broke up. And I stayed with the other partner who in her terms had another relationship already. And that was how I landed into this, and started paying attention to whatever was going on in my body, some of my behavior. There’s the antecedent and then there’s the behavior and then there’s the consequence. And I wasn’t really sure what was what, at one point. So I started interviewing people reading books about it. I found that there were very few books, good books about polyamory. And then I started asking questions, putting it forward in Compassionate Inquiry trainings or sessions, asking about what was going on. And so I found that, that I was very intrigued by my own process in the whole thing. And this is today. It’s. I’m very intrigued by what’s going on inside me, because insecurity and trying to get out of it, and having an open relationship, rather, because when it gets to amory, it’s a little different than just having a sexual encounter with someone. So it’s really… It’s a struggle sometimes. And sometimes I worry that the struggle in itself is becoming the thing that I’m worried about. And I should be checking in with myself constantly as to what’s going on there. And I’m learning, and therefore this opportunity to be here and to explore and to express and to learn from these two beautiful beings and yourself, that’s what I’m here for. And hopefully I’ll get a lot more knowledge when I leave today. And especially about what I am in. Even now, I’m babbling a little bit, because I have to translate all my thoughts into English and being fully aware of what’s going on. I can feel myself blushing right now. There’s all kinds of things going on, and I love that. To be able to connect to that, instead of correcting it. Totally off topic already, but that’s how it goes.

00:15:45 David

I really like you, JP. I’m just really glad you’re here and just really appreciating the energy that you’re

bringing to this experience. So just. I just feel really grateful. It’s really sweet to have this kind of masculine presence doing this. It feels good. I feel very resonant. Yeah. One of the things you’re talking about, what can I learn that’s such a perfect starting point in this work? One of the things that you all were Rosemary and Jessica talking about a moment ago was love may be infinite, but time isn’t. And one of the things that Jessica taught us all in this world in terms of the ethical, non monogamous universe, is that neither is attachment. And so there’s a big difference between loving someone and feeling securely attached to them. And so learning how to work with sort of the relative finite nature of our attachment systems is such a profound point of discovery, an opportunity for people in this world of ethical non monogamy. And I’m really wanting, in my work, for clients to understand what are your primary attachment needs in any given relationship, because these function differently than just the broad smattering of human needs that we might find on a list like something like, nonviolent communication. Attachment needs are very specific needs that each person has to feel safe and connected to another human being. And so any conversation about ethical Non monogamy, I think, necessarily has to have some consideration or some focus on the way that our attachment systems function and the relationship between our attachment system and our nervous systems. So just wanting to set that precedent for our conversation.

00:17:32 Rosemary

Thank you. Thank you, David. That is a question I have on my list. So why don’t we go there right now? Because I know your, not your most recent book, Jessica and David, because you co authored the last two, but the one before that really spoke a lot about attachment. So could you just maybe explain simply and clearly for our listeners, how does attachment play into polyamory?

00:17:56 Jessica

Yeah, it plays tremendously into polyamory. And that was what I saw years ago, as I have clients coming to me trying to sort through the challenges that they were experiencing as they were already polyamorous or newly opening up. And they, without the psychological language, they were all describing attachment insecurity, or attachment ruptures that were making it hard, or even attachment healing that they had never experienced before. And there was nothing that was connecting the two. And it was a ‘no duh’. Here you have a population of people that are forging multiple attachment bonds. Isn’t that interesting to see what happens? Yeah.

00:18:41 Rosemary

And could I back you up just a little bit? Attachment style is something that we develop as infants, and maybe you could just even. Very basic.

00:18:50 Jessica

Yeah, very basic. Attachment styles fall under the category of having a secure attachment style, which is the words even David uses. I feel safe and secure and connected to my caregivers and then to my romantic partners or other attachment figures as adults that might not be romantic. And when we feel safe and connected and attuned to, we also feel more exploration and freedom in those relationships. But more than half the time, that’s not what people experience, at least statistically, within the US, and we have three different ways to have insecure attachment styles where depending on what the child went through or even what ruptures or traumas we experience in adulthood, we could be more withdrawn, which is called the avoidant dismissive. We can become more hyper vigilant and grasping, which is called anxious and preoccupied, or we go back and forth between the two, and that’s called disorganized.

00:19:52 Rosemary

Yeah. This is the mechanics behind our dynamics. It’s not something that people are conscious of unless they’ve been in therapy for a little while.

00:20:01 Jessica

Right. I mean, now it’s becoming more, you know, there’s memes and all these things about attachment styles. It’s even what you ask on a dating profile, what’s your attachment style? But people are still… we’re at the beginning of really exploring what that means.

00:20:15 Rosemary

Interesting. And we’re going to get more into the therapeutic perspective later. But I’m fascinated. I found a quote from you, Jessica, something you wrote, and I’m going to start it. And I’m sure you’ll be familiar with this quote and you may want to finish it. And you start by saying “Many of us juggle multiple life factors including businesses to run, work to go to, children to take care of, our physical bodies to tend to, homes and cars that need maintenance, friends and family to keep up with, groups and communities to stay active with… ” Do you know the quote I’m referencing, Jessica?

00:20:46 Jessica

Yes, I do.

00:20:47 Rosemary

Would you like to pick up?

00:20:48 Jessica

You can keep reading. I’m like, where did that one go?

00:20:51 Rosemary

“…emails to respond to and an online presence to maintain. Not to mention the time needed for self-care, exercise, play, personal growth, meditation practice, shows to binge or simple quiet time in nature. Economic times have also changed. For many, a single income is barely enough to support a single person, let alone a family. As I enumerate all of these life factors, I’m actually surprised anyone has time for even one securely attached relationship. Secure attachment takes time, both to establish and to maintain. Research shows that it takes babies up to seven months for their attachment to their caregivers to become securely established, and for adults, a securely attached romantic relationship takes approximately two years to really solidify.60 So, while you might feel an instant resonance or connection with someone, building an actual relationship based on trust, seeing each other in multiple contexts, deeply understanding each other and relating in securely attached ways requires time.” And that’s a quote from Polysecure. 

So, before I invite you to say anything, I’m doing a ‘compare and contrast.’ I’d like to share Gabor Maté’s perspective on monogamous relationships, because from my perspective, it seems like there might be easier ways to fulfill those needs. Easier ways? Gabor said. “You always marry someone that’s going to trigger for you every unhappiness you ever had in your childhood. So when we find somebody to be in a relationship with, it happens on two levels. One level is I find them attractive, they’re funny, they’re fun to be with. Underneath, there’s a looking for the love we never got in the first place. So relationships are very much a matter of growing up together, if that can happen. But I guarantee you when you marry someone, you can find both your dreams and your worst nightmares.” I compared and contrasted those two because Gabor has spoken extensively about the challenges he’s had in his long marriage to his wife of 50 plus years. And it’s like you’d want to be doing this work, this emotional work with more than one partner! That’s why I cottoned onto your quote, Jessica, We’ve got all these other things going on in life. There must be an easier way than having multiple relationships. It boggles my mind. So I wonder what you’d like to say to that.

00:23:20 Jessica

Thank you for sharing and pulling out that quote of mine and then comparing it. I’m familiar with the Gabor quote actually too, and yeah, I think what happens in non monogamy, maybe to speak to his quote, is that we get to do that work on multiple levels around different things that actually wouldn’t come up with just one person. In my experience of having multiple partners, some of these newer partners were triggering things that the previous partners never actually activated. Both the beauty of certain needs I hadn’t had met and also some of those nightmares. And there’s also this dynamic of having metamors, which is your partner’s partner. You’re not involved with them, but you’re both involved with the same person. And when I was in a monogamous context, none of my step parent trauma was activated. And then when I was polyamoros, all of this step parent, this triangulation that dad did with stepmom, and now that was getting activated with my partner and his other partner. Yes, on the surface when we name all these things that can happen and all the challenges to just being in one relationship, it sounds overwhelming, but I don’t want to deter anyone too. Also realizing like there’s the potential for healing and joy both expands along with the complexity that can be more challenging.

00:24:44 Rosemary

Yeah, I hear that. I hear that and I get that because I’ve had that experience in the Compassionate Inquiry community with non sexual but deeply emotionally intimate relationships. So I guess there is courage and openness and willingness to learn and grow required.

00:25:01 David

Yeah, I think one of the things that my work in this field has done has really humbled me to the vast nature of needs. People have such different needs depending on what their historical relational precedents have been. And so my clients have taught me that there’s no one way to think about attachment. And every attachment system is different, as Jessica said. So every single relationship that’s attachment based is going to be so unique in and of itself. And so it presents us with new opportunities that in a strictly monogamous context wouldn’t be possible. And so there’s always pros and cons to that. What’s interesting, and this is potentially in the more challenging aspect or realm of ethical non monogamy, is that we’re often, on one hand forced to be more aware of our own attachment systems, the way that we operate in attachment based relationships. So there’s this up leveling, there’s this invitation to be more conscious of these facets of our being as humans. But then there’s also ways in which it can be strangely distorted. Right. And we have to learn about the phenomenon of NRE new relationship energy. As you said, you can get caught up in the hormonal flush of meeting someone, having that sense of connection resonance sort of swept away by that process. And it’s not until you get further along in the relationship till the attachment mechanisms start to really activate. If you’ve got multiple partners, often you can extend that NRE phase, that new relationship phase, longer than you would in a monogamous context. And so often people think, oh, this is amazing. I don’t have the same problems in this relationship with my other relationship. We never get into the shit. It’s because you don’t have the same domesticity, you don’t have the same time under your belt in terms of proximity and shared daily responsibilities. And yet with enough time, we often see that those things do activate later. Right, those attachment wounds. So it’s a really interesting sort of yin and yang between what a profound opportunity to learn more about yourself and what an interesting way that our sense of attachment really gets played with in the context of ethical nonmonogamy.

00:27:24 Rosemary

Yeah. And JP, I’m going to invite you to weigh in because you are experiencing this right now. I’m curious to hear what your thoughts are on how the added complexity is balanced by the added joy and learning and growth.

00:27:41 JP

What I’m sensing is that right now, the process that I’m in, it’s not all that much fun when I’m together with my partner. I don’t have another partner myself right now. It’s open, but she’s not really happy with the idea that I’m also pursuing something like this in the foreseeable future. And so I want to make a lot of space for that. I’m in no hurry. But at the same time I’m very happy with the partner that she has because he’s really looking after her and really taking good care of her. So I have no concerns in that aspect. Also no jealousy. I had a few bumps in the road when she was going out and having dates with someone else to see if there was something else, that made me feel insecure about myself. And so that’s why I started going out on the net and finding information about it and found those two beautiful books, Polywise and Polysecure. I have one right here, in fact. And now that I hear David and Jessica speak, I’m noticing that I am more confident as I’m sitting here because I know that there’s a wealth of information, and I’m hoping that there’s a course or something like that that I can maybe get myself into to learn more about myself in this situation and to also have a sparring partner, if you will. And that’s my close combat instructor. And so I know a bit about sparring, but just to put myself in perspective here is that I’m with a few toes in the water right now, and I’m getting a little giddy by all that’s being said. And so, yeah, I don’t know what else to say, but I’m in the process of just starting to understand who I am in this realm. So I don’t know if that makes any sense.

00:29:23 David

Yeah. I’d love to ask a question. You were teeing him off, Rosemary, to get into some of the particulars of his experience in reflection to what we’ve just said. JP, if you’re open to me asking you a question and contextualizing some of what we’ve just mentioned, I’m curious if you have a sense of your own attachment style like we’ve talked about. Anxious, avoidant, disorganized. I’m curious if you’re aware of some of the things that, in terms of the patterns that emerge in your relationship, right now.

00:29:52 JP

It’s anxious and avoidance, a combination depending on how I feel, it seems. And so therefore, I. I don’t like diagnosis, I don’t like stipulations. I don’t like I’m this or that. So I grant myself access to multiple different attachment styles, but anxious and avoiding would be the two that would probably fit me well.

00:30:16 David

Excellent. So I think you’ve really highlighted something that I think is really key in the work for myself, which is, if not about diagnosing, it’s not about saying you’re an anxious person, you’re an avoidant person, and that’s your style for the rest of your life. I think the way of thinking about attachment that’s most useful to me is an agile description of the way that our nervous system responds to certain circumstances and situations. Right. And so my partner does X, and I have an anxious response, like for example, one thing I’ve noticed is I have a predilection for anxious tendencies when I have to assert my need for self care. So my primary partner says to me we’re on the calendar for this weekend and I’m realizing that I’m not going to be able to show up well to the weekend because I need to take care of other things. And so I’m essentially saying no to time spent. But we don’t get a lot of time spent. So to say no to any time together is a real sacrifice in terms of our sense of continuity. That brings up this anxious feeling that if I’m going to say no I start to feel like, “Shit. If I say no, she’s going to pull away. This is going to damage our relationship. She’s going to start the narrative, or feeling, that I don’t have enough time for her and that this relationship isn’t worth it for her.” So that’s a very anxious cycle that’s generated in response to me having to lean into self care. So I’m curious if there’s any dynamics like that where you’re really aware of, ‘Oh, I really have a very anxious or a very avoidant response to this particular aspect of our relational dynamic.’

00:31:52 JP

Yeah, for instance, me going out and trying to find another person to have an interaction with. I feel avoiding… avoidance, to share, because there’s so much going on with her already, you know, in her life. And so I don’t want to burden her. And that’s true. It’s not like I want to just do something and be done with it, it’s I genuinely feel that I’m going to hurt her and I have anxiety because of that. And so that shows up in my lower back area, and then this band of energy there and it’s almost like I’m in a split, and that’s something that I need to cope with. So I seek out my therapist and speak to them and we’re speaking about my inner child and all that stuff. But where it really comes down to is that I am not taking responsibility. And so that’s my goal now, is to be responsible for what I do. And so when I want to go out and have a meeting or a meetup with someone, or just to explore the surface a little bit, I want to own that and be self compassionate about that and stand tall behind myself, whenever it’s going south. I took a small step towards the value of connection, towards the value of authenticity, towards the value of trust and love. And I’m taking small steps, committed actions, and I’m owning them. And so that’s currently where I’m at in this process. But to take that step, to actually go over that threshold, that’s the part that really stings.

00:33:25 David

Yeah, I love that. I love the specificity in your self awareness. You have such an amazing, I’m assuming it’s linked to your martial experience, but maybe it’s more than that. But just I love your somatic awareness of where those things show up in your physical body. That’s so key. I love that. But the thing I’m hearing you say is that’s interesting for me and as an extension of this attachment work is, really understanding the ways in which these styles create adaptive emotional survival strategies. Right. So what I’m hearing you say is, ‘When I’m going out and afraid of the potential impact of me exploring the field, so to speak, on my partner, there’s an avoidant tendency.’ Right. Like a caretaking. We call like a caretaking strategy. And it could even dovetail into an avoidance of conflict strategy. Right. We all have these different strategies, people pleasing. Right.

00:34:24 JP

I’m a big fawner. There’s a lot of fawning going on. And so when I’m in a ventral state, I can be very frank about everything. In ventral, there’s enough dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin and all that stuff. And I feel great and I’m happy and then I’m able to share everything. But once I get sympathetic in my nervous system, things go south rapidly too.

00:34:44 David

Yeah.

00:34:45 JP

Yeah. But I’m so happy that you would acknowledge this because you’re just saying what I. And I heard you say that you had the same kind of thing going on. So the sense of not being alone in it has gotten me out of my input, output loop.

00:34:58 David

Nice. I love that.

00:35:00 Rosemary

Thank you. That was a beautiful exchange. And through this conversation, it’s becoming very clear why therapeutic support and conflict management resolution support go hand in hand for this experience. So I wonder if you could speak a little bit about the model that you developed and how you bring that work into people who are, as JP is, exploring the polyamorous territory.

00:35:29 David

Yeah, absolutely. So the model that I’ve created is called the Restorative Relationship Conversations Model. And it’s really born out of my work in the field of restorative justice. And for those not familiar with that, it’s a practice through which people are given the opportunity to sit down with individuals whom they’ve harmed. Right? And so in the justice sense in terms of society or institutional level. I was working at a nonprofit, and working with people who had committed crimes, and inviting those people who had committed those crimes to sit down with the people that they had harmed in a restorative justice conference or circle, talk about the impacts of their behavior, and then figure out what is it that’s going to create a sense of repair, not just even between the two individuals, or multiple individuals, but even the sense of community. Right? Recognizing that nothing happens in a vacuum and that the communal aspect is really the important thing. Reintegration after getting burned out at that work I realized I wanted to do something similar, but at the level of intimate attachment based relationships. And so there was a honing in on the sort of audience that I was really wanting to cater to. And so started doing this privately for clients, but really with this focus on attachment based relationships, recognizing that there needed to be more structure in the way of managing ruptures relationally. And so I’m someone who, for better or for worse, is drawn to complexity and challenge. And first, my exploration in ethical nonmonogamy came with Jessica, when we were still married. Right? So we opened our marriage, explored that together, and then actually got divorced, but stayed in each other’s lives. We have a son and what we are now to each other is life partners. And so that’s been my education into, or my initiation, rather, into the world of ethical nonmonogamy was very personal. Going through that process really helped me understand the dynamics that are underneath the conflict that comes up in polyamorous contexts or ethical non monogamous contexts. And so there was just a niche to fill. There was also, I know this world, I’m comfortable here, I like it, I’m drawn to it. The principles really excite me, I think in terms of what it’s offering, society as a reflection to consider is really important. So I want to support it. But in the work specifically that I’m doing with clients, the way this all plays out is I’m holding a unique space for people to lean into conversations that don’t feel safe to have without a third party being present. And the process is very specific. So I’m holding a very rigid container. That rigidity creates a space where people feel held. It’s not just nervous systems wigging out and going after each other in a state of dysregulation. Right? I’m really boundaried in what I’m allowing people to say and not say. It’s not about stifling authenticity, it’s about maintaining regulation, and so my goal is not to get people from point A to point B. My goal is not even to keep relationships together because sometimes, actually I don’t think they actually are in the right kind of relationship, or there’s not enough compatibility in terms of need meeting, capacity for the relationship to be sustainable. So my goal is not to protect or save relationships. It’s about how to teach people to make it through a difficult conversation and stay safe and connected throughout the entire process. So if we only make it an inch in our conversation together in an hour or two hour session, but we stay safe and connected the whole time, prioritizing and recalibrating to a regulated state, right? In a relational versus an adversarial paradigm, that’s a success. So we have to slow down and change our expectations to really understand what is the point of the process. And it’s to relearn how to talk to someone when you feel upset or threatened by them or with them.

00:39:35 Rosemary

I can see how that is so valuable for people exploring this terrain. Thank you, Dave. I’m curious to find out, as someone who was adopted, an adoptee at very young age, three weeks of age, we talk in the adoption world about a constellation. All of these individuals who are impacted by adoption. And I’m getting the same impression with polyamory. I have a little bit of experience myself because I married… I was the third wife of a man who’d been married twice before, so there was already like, it wasn’t polyamorous. But I got maybe, perhaps a secondary taste of something similar. And I’m just wondering, do you have constellations within polyamory? All the different people impacted that need to be taken into account?

00:40:27 Jessica

Yes. It’s often called the polycule, so the word molecule, but the polycule that you’re in. And people even sometimes draw and map them out to capture what you’re talking about. Or sometimes even if people are messaging or meeting, they’ll say, tell me about your poly constellation. Right? Who are all the parties involved? And so it’s really holding a systemic view, a wider range of relationships. And I had a similar, a different upbringing, but a similar experience that you’re describing of my parents having multiple divorces, but my mom always stayed friends. So I’d have the ex stepdad and his new wife, who’s friends with my mom and loves me. And there would be these events where we’d have this whole constellation of children and marriages and breakups. But everyone was mature enough to say, we care about each other as humans. And so there’s a similar sentiment in holding the polyoule.

00:41:29 Rosemary

Yeah, I love that term. That’s great. And I’m also curious, too. Working with internal family systems, everyone has parts. And I interviewed somebody on that topic who was an IFS, Internal Family Systems practitioner, and he said the average is about 40 parts per person. So if you add that to the polycule, it gets really wild. And I’m curious, too. That’s just a funny observation of the masses of parts and people involved. But when you bring Internal Family Systems into your work with people who are living polyamorous lifestyles, how does that play in?

00:42:09 Jessica

Yeah, it has become, for me, really crucial. It’s what actually using IFS with polyamorous partnerships and polycules has helped me accelerate the healing. Because people are having all of this reactivity, let’s say, or attachment ruptures that they’re going through. And when we start to say, okay, what part of you is getting reactive? It just would move the work much faster. And people starting to realize that it’s the part of me reacting to that part of you. And that’s what the dynamic is that’s challenging. Or this really wonderful part of me is so in love with that wonderful part of you. And I’ve never had that kind of pairing before. Yeah. So I think I have a book in me that will be like, Many Parts, Many Partners, because we can’t necessarily expect one partner to speak to all of our parts, but when we’re in more of a village setup, relationally, a lot of our parts can find their healing or their expression.

00:43:10 Rosemary

The title of that book, it sounds so intriguing and it reminds me of Brian Weiss’s book Many Lives, Many Masters, along the same lines. I’m curious, too. There’s so much I’d like to address, and I know we don’t have all that much time left, but I’d like to talk about your books, Polysecure (2020), Polly Wise (2023) and your newest book, Transforming the Shame Triangle. What would you like to say about these books? I know JP’s got one or two of those at hand.

00:43:38 Jessica

Yeah. I will say that the first two books came out of a real grappling in my therapy practice of trying to help sort through with people, like, why is this non monogamy thing so hard? And the answer to not do non monogamy isn’t the right answer. Right. That’s not the solution here. And so I came up with a body of work that was like, through grounded research, grounded theory research, with my clients and interviewees, was, okay, here’s the five or six main things that are happening. And so the first book just addresses one of them, which is attachment. And then the second book, which Dave was brought into, is the rest of the challenges and how to work through them. And to JP, I had a client recently who, him and his wife I work with. And he said his wife was in bed reading PolyWise and he was like, why are you reading that scary book before bed? We’ve been laughing about that because his resistance too. But this next book, Transforming the Shame Triangle, is really a divergent from polyamorous relationships. And Dave and I speaking to a more general audience of doing that inner parts healing work.

00:44:54 David

I’ll say that the new book, we’re really focused in the new book on working with the parts that are specifically related to shame. And so you were talking about constellations a moment ago, Rosemary. We’re talking about very specific relationships between specific parts that do a significant amount of relational damage internally, intrapersonally, right? Within the self. And so this book is really about addressing something that Jessica and I have identified in our work with clients that feels foundational. If we can’t address and work with shame in a way that’s productive, and really help people change their relationship to the inner critic, shame, and the escapers that then emerge as a result of those inner constellations, what we see is that their growth work stalls. This is particularly profound in my work in conflict. One of the things that real repair requires is acknowledgement. Right? We have to be able to take accountability and acknowledge the impact of our behavior on others. One of the single most challenging impediments to that is shame. And so this book for us is a real love letter to the clients who struggle with this and feel stuck in their work or their own journeys. Right? We’re wanting to give something practical that feels different, and through the IFS lens.

00:46:20 Rosemary

Wonderful. That sounds excellent and I really appreciate that for the listeners, all of the three books that I just mentioned are listed in the show notes with links through to purchase. 

We’re taking a brief pause to share what’s on offer in the compassionate inquiry community. Stay with us. We’ll be right back.

00:46:45 Kevin

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00:47:42 Rosemary

Now, I’m also very curious. You referenced the drama triangle and now you developed two more triangles, the shame triangle and the self-love triangle. I wonder if you could speak briefly about those.

00:47:55 Jessica

So most people are familiar with the drama triangle. And in my attempt to figure out this internal tangle that a lot of people… or like these internal walls or their complaints about themselves or their life, trying to sort through what that was, I realized it wasn’t just one part of them. It wasn’t just the perfectionist or the people pleaser, or the procrastinator. It was this internalized drama triangle. And so the internalized persecutor is the inner critic, which is that voice that bullies us or beats us up. And interestingly, it’s usually in second person, saying, ‘What’s wrong with you? How could you? You should have. You shouldn’t.’ We all know it. And our internal victim is our shame. And that’s the part of us that hears the inner critic and absorbs it and goes, ‘You’re right.’ And in first person, believes, ‘I am fundamentally broken or unworthy or unlovable or damaged in some way.’ And that’s pretty intense. And so we have rescuers, parts that come online so that we don’t have to hear that inner critic or feel that level of shame. And those are the escapers. And we escape in many ways. We usually have several. We escape by over functioning, over caretaking, perfecting, people pleasing. We can escape by zoning out and under functioning, or using too many substances or scrolling or streaming too much. Or we escape through projecting it outward. I’ll just outer critic you. I’ll become the perpetrator or the persecutor on the drama triangle. Or becoming aggressive in more extreme ways to ourself. So that’s the inner constellation of the shame triangle. And then through the book, we’re walking people, through how to dialogue and work with these parts, realizing along the way this isn’t your own personal failing. This comes from a larger social experience of living in power structures, experiencing criticism and trauma through family and school and relationships. And the inner critic transforms to the Inner coach, we call it the self love triangle. So this inner critic to inner coach is a transformation of a part of us that still holds us to standards, but does so by encouraging us instead of shooting us down. Our escapers, instead of turning away from our own pain and discomfort, they become inner nurturers that can turn towards and tend to whatever we’re feeling. And shame doesn’t really turn into a part. It really releases the part and just allows our raw experience, whatever is, without that layer of the story of shame that’s usually put on top of whatever is.

00:50:50 Rosemary

Thank you for that explanation. It’s really clear. I love that shift.

00:50:53 Jessica

Thank you.

00:50:54 JP

Beautiful. What you just shared, both Dave and Jessica, especially inner critic to an inner coach. I use that a lot, but not in those words, and it’s beautiful. And so my inner critic is holding a lot of old pain from my previous relationships in which I hadn’t been honest about my intentions and what I did outside of the marriage. And that resulted into all kinds of different shit. And I’m wondering, since there’s a lot of parts, I’m very aware of my parts, and not just from IFS, but also voice dialogue. What I see is that the parts that were… I don’t like the word cheating necessarily, because I didn’t know any better, but those parts were young parts, like in my puberty somewhere, that didn’t get the attention that they needed, and so they got out. And I had a wife that was different in her approach. And I felt this is my truth. Of course, she was asking a lot of acknowledgement and a lot of recognition all the time. And I felt like I fell short in that for myself. So I went out and I had different endeavors with people. And I’m wondering how I could heal that within myself, so that the pattern is broken and healing the broken relationship I left. That’s one question, how I could do that, just stay with the hurt and healing old pains. But also the other thing is bringing in children, because I have children, three of them. And unless they listen to this podcast, they haven’t known of what I’m doing in my relationships. And so there is a bit of shame. There’s also a little bit of fear of being abandoned. Coming with that when I share this, and they wouldn’t be in agreement with it. So that’s the two questions that I have. I don’t know if that makes sense.

00:52:41 David

Yeah, it definitely makes sense. And if we lean into the first question of how to start breaking the cycle, right, of feeling stuck in the shame, that’s attached to these extramarital experiences. That’s a place that feels really rich for me to explore. What we’re really trying to do is create the capacity to be with whatever is real in response to those experiences. Right. So one of the things that I like to say to clients is with this work with the shame triangle, we’re trying to focus on one aspect of our human suffering and get really curious about it. So we’re trying to understand what was true for us. And that’s what the parts are here to teach us about that experience, that dynamic with your ex wife. It sounds like you’ve already got a good base in terms of having a knowledge of what some of your respective parts are. But for me, then I would want to lean into, okay, what is the specific story or critique that the inner critic is making? What is the inner critic still saying? And there could be multiple inner critics. There could be various inner critics that are holding different storylines. But I’d love to create a space to understand what are those storylines and where are those storylines connected to? What are the origins of those storylines? They might not even be your stories. That would be a starting point. Yeah.

00:54:10 JP

Because I really sense the psychological barrier there and fused cognitionally with those thoughts, and I really want to get away from it, but that will be a strategy. And I’m not leaning into the value of what I really find important in my life. So, yeah.

00:54:23 Jessica

Yeah. If I can add to that. Because first of all, JP, I just really appreciate the vulnerability and the courage of bringing forth your past actions and behaviors that you don’t feel as proud about. And what I’ve come to see as a pattern is that when people do break agreements and have extramarital experiences or relationships, there’s always a teenage part that is the one that took over, an adolescent, excitingly sexual, but didn’t get those needs met. That was the one that took over. And what’s fascinating is a lot of times when we start to talk to that part, it doesn’t even know that you’re married. It doesn’t even know that there’s something else that it shouldn’t have been doing, so to speak. So a lot of times that part needs to be updated to what the current environment is, how old you are, the relationships you’re in, what those agreements are. Because I find every time it didn’t know. And the other thing is that usually having that part turned towards you instead of turning outward, where you’re the source of that attention now, you are the source of that care and those needs that weren’t fully met back then so that it doesn’t have to go act out and be seeking for them in ways that could be challenging to others or to yourself.

00:55:44 Rosemary

I hate to say this, but we are coming toward the end of our time and I would love to ask the question that we always conclude this podcast with, which is, you have the ear of the world that listens to this podcast. What few words, phrase, thought, concept? Would you like to leave with them something for them to contemplate or consider or perhaps inquire into?

00:56:08 David

Yeah, I’d really like to invite people. This is something I’m wanting in our work in general, which is to really lean into the possibility of changing the way our inner voice shows up, the way that we talk to ourselves, especially in moments of trial or crisis or in response to some kind of trauma. Often we internalize a sense of self responsibility. We have an adversarial posture towards our own pain. And so I’m really wanting people as much as they can to explore shifting that. What would it be like to be your own best ally? What if when you experience hardship or challenge or make a mistake, the first default response internally to that pain is one of comfort, compassion, patience, softness, attunement? What would the world look like?

00:57:01 Jessica

I love that Dave. I’ll go relational since that’s what the series is. Many times, if we think of how we’ve designed our relationships, they’re not our own design, they’re the society or cultural design. Or we design our relationships from parts of us that are more fearful than alive and inspired. So just exploring who’s designing your relationship or how you’ve been living relationships and if you were to design it not based on the fearful or grasping part, or the should parts, or the should culture, from your authentic expression, what would that look like? Whether monogamous or poly, or none of it.

00:57:47 Rosemary

What a great point for people to reflect on. Thank you. JP, would you like to share a thought?

00:57:53 JP

Yeah, I’m really appreciative, and when I’m checking in with myself, I’m really happy to have shared what I did and it was a little chaotic when it came out and I’m totally okay with that. And I just want to say if there’s anyone listening that is uncomfortable with coming forward with stuff, come speak to me, or whatever, because I’ve been there and it’s still difficult to speak and to share and I feel like I’m a newbie and I’m a tenured in so many other things and I’m new in this and so that that whole dynamic is beautiful. And so if you’re in that same space, then I invite you to really to take that bold gesture and move on and to do it. And resilience is what comes up for me as well. I think I’m very resilient and I didn’t know that I was.

00:58:45 Rosemary

Thank you, JP, that was beautiful. I love your vulnerability. And thank you for being so open to sharing so deeply as this conversation unfolded. I can’t believe we’re out of time. There’s so many questions I didn’t get to ask. However, I’m hoping our listeners learned as much from this conversation as I have. Jessica Fern, David Cooley, JP Bolhuis, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing your wisdom, your insights, your discoveries and your innovations. It’s been a complete pleasure to have you all here.

00:59:17 Jessica

Yes, thank you so much.

00:59:18 David

Thank you, 

JP: Thank you.

00:59:24 Rosemary

The Gifts of Trauma is a weekly podcast that features personal stories of trauma healing, transformation, transformation, and the gifts revealed on the path to authenticity. 

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