00:00:00 Rosemary

How do you help your clients meet their deepest fears and doubts, with compassion and curiosity when it feels to them like things are falling apart?

00:00:09 Leila

It’s in that unraveling. It’s actually in that collapse, is the freedom. And it reminds me of the turning point for myself in this journey. The moment that I decided to really surrender, the moment that I said it out loud. If I’m not going to become a parent, if I’m not to be a mother in this life, I think I will be okay. And that didn’t feel good, actually. That turning point wasn’t like some peaceful moment by the sea where I thought, oh wow, here it is. No, it was a complete collapse. It was a complete unraveling, actually. And in that, I found agency. In that, I found a sense of freedom. In that I found the beginning. And so for the clients, in the fear, in the shame, the longing, the despair, the anxiety, the depression, all other things that they may experience, it’s actually in that space that the truth… The truth can actually come forward. And with compassion, we can actually hold it.

00:01:23 Rosemary

This is the Gifts of Trauma Podcast, stories of transformation and healing through compassionate inquiry. Welcome to another episode of the Gifts of Trauma podcast by Compassionate Inquiry.

I’m Rosemary Davies Janes, and today I have the honor of speaking with a Compassionate Inquiry colleague, Leila Bahri-Lucas. Leila, welcome to the podcast.

00:01:56 Leila

Thanks for having me, Rosemary. It’s a real pleasure.

00:01:59 Rosemary

It’s a real pleasure for us, too. I’m going to introduce you to our listeners by sharing some snippets from your bio. The full version is in the show notes. Now, Leila, you’re a therapeutic coach and with a master’s in psychology and the neuroscience of Mental Health from King’s College London. Your work is deeply rooted in Compassionate Inquiry, Relational Life Therapy, Positive Psychology, and lived experience. The majority of your clients are navigating the emotional and relational terrain of infertility, which includes grief, longing, shame, anxiety, identity loss, and the deeper questions that these struggles often stir. You also support clients moving through emotional overwhelm, relationship breakdowns or identity shifts. Leila, what would you like to add to what I’ve said to introduce yourself to our listeners?

00:02:51 Leila

Yeah, thanks for that, Rosemary. I guess what I would add to that is that I found my way to this work not just as a profession, but really as a personal truth. Because I had to learn firsthand how to keep living when life didn’t give me what I longed for. And so, let’s say that the experience became a window into how I now sit with my own clients in their own reckoning. And so, yeah, supporting individuals, couples and groups now, facing infertility trauma and any relational sort of challenge is at the heart of my work. And lastly, I would say, Rosemary, that my work is really about loving the truth. If I would have to summarize it in one sentence, I would say it’s about learning to love the truth. And we can talk a little bit more about that as we go, but…

00:03:52 Rosemary

I would like to. I would like to ask you about that. But for now, following the true compassionate inquiry format, I’d like to offer my intention for this conversation, which is that it provides a measure of peace and possibility to the men and women experiencing fertility challenges of any sort, to let them know they’re not alone and to invite them to find solidarity in the company of others who are walking this path alongside them. And, I didn’t give you any warning about this, but I wonder, do you have an intention for our conversation today?

00:04:28 Leila

Thanks for your intention. That’s really beautiful. My intention would be to let listeners know, firstly, listeners who are facing infertility, that they’re not alone, because one of the biggest things around this journey is a deep sense of being alone with it, a sense of isolation. And so it really is important for people to know that they’re actually not alone in this. And for listeners who are therapists or coaches or anyone working with people who are facing infertility, that really what we’re dealing with is more than a medical issue, even though it’s often framed like that. We are really dealing with emotional and relational terrain that is… It’s a bit of a minefield. That’s my intention here. Hoping that we’re going to look at it from the wider lens.

00:05:23 Rosemary

Yeah. Thank you. That’s beautiful. I’m so happy you included other healing professionals in your intention. And you’ve given me a beautiful segue right into my first question, because I do really want to go deep with you, but initially I’d like to start zoomed out. To frame up our conversation, I’d like to invite you to spend a few minutes addressing some common infertility myths and misperceptions. And I did share a list of myths and misperceptions that I had found online, and it’s linked in the show notes as well. Would you like me to share some? Would you just like to pick some from the list? I’m not sure if it’s handy. How would you like to deal with these?

00:06:02 Leila

It was a great list, by the way, because they’re all big myths. And actually what I would like to say, Rosemary, the list goes on and on. But I’ve picked a few from your list because I thought it was really good. And I’ve added one.

00:06:15 Rosemary

Perfect.

00:06:15 Leila

I think, to start with, it’s .. infertility is primarily a female issue. I think that’s a big one.

00:06:23 Rosemary

Okay.

00:06:25 Leila

If you look at the research, it will tell you very clearly that it’s a 50:50 percent division, divided up 50, 50. So it’s equal.

00:06:36 Rosemary

In other words, it’s equal.

00:06:38 Leila

Male factor, female factor is divided equal across the board. The next myth, infertility is rare. It’s only rare because it’s hidden and it’s a taboo. It’s not actually rare. Again, the World Health Organization states that one in six globally suffers from infertility. Now, if you think about that one in six, that would be in your small group of friends, somebody is facing infertility. Perhaps in your immediate work environment, someone is facing infertility. Or in your family at large, there is someone that is facing infertility or is going to face infertility. So it’s very common. So that’s a big myth. Another one that I picked from your list was, if you have a child, then you won’t have to face infertility. There is something called secondary infertility, which is actually something that is not very much spoken about and it’s very painful for those that are dealing with it. Secondary infertility, is, you’ve had your first child, it was an easy pregnancy, you’re trying again for a second one and it’s not working at all. And it can take years and years or it may never happen again. We could talk about that a little bit more as well in terms of what that really means. But it was a myth I wanted to bring up because it’s again, it’s not one of the typical myths that we talk about. The fourth one and maybe the last one, fertility doctors know best. This is a big one. And that sort of is along the lines, Rosemary, If you think about the general medical field, the medical system, doctors know best. Not always true. We’re talking about a billion dollar industry, the fertility market. So not every doctor knows best and not every doctor has good meaning with patients. It’s a profit driven market. So there is something called making money. So I’ve had personal experience with this as well. One needs agency.

00:08:33 Rosemary

Yeah. And I’m very glad you said that because as Gabor has said about physician training, there’s no training on dealing with trauma, I think he said they spend one day on nutrition, which is like, nothing. And there’s probably little to no training on fertility issues.

00:08:51 Leila

Exactly.

00:08:51 Rosemary

So, yes, they’re a doctor, but, yes, what have they been trained in and where does the training come from? So I can see that’s a whole nest of questions and research that needs to be done. Thank you for bringing that up.

00:09:05 Leila

You’re welcome.

00:09:06 Rosemary

Yeah. And you answered the first myth before I even had a chance to bring it up, which is, infertility is primarily a physical or medical issue, and you’ve already said that it is not. There are many other elements.

00:09:18 Leila

Many, indeed. Yeah.

00:09:20 Rosemary

So I’m going to start narrowing us down. Leila, you’ve spoken openly about your own personal fertility journey. Can you walk us through it, perhaps starting with the realization that conception was not going to be easy.

00:09:34 Leila

I knew it was probably not going to be easy, Rosemary, because I married later in life. So by the time I was trying to conceive, I was late 30s. So I knew that was potentially going to be an issue for me. But what I didn’t know, Rosemary, is… And this is particular to my case, but also to many others, actually. Is that it was going to take six years, even after I was told… So, wider angle. I went through 11 IVF treatments across six years. That’s considered a lot. That’s not the average amount of treatments people go through. Early on into my journey, I was told that I would require egg donation. And so I thought, okay, this will be the solution to my problem. I was told I’m too old now. I cannot conceive with my own eggs, and egg donation would solve the problem. What I didn’t know, Rosemary, is that even with egg donation, I had another 10 failed IVF treatments. So we knew that male factor was not an issue. So I went on a… I don’t know, I think I became a PhD in IVF research. I started researching like crazy. I started reading up anything medical, IVF, from IVF to endometriosis to adenomyosis, you name it. I became a researcher, basically. And I was lucky enough, and not everyone is that lucky, to work with a doctor here in Dubai who was very collaborative and very willing to hear my side of things, to hear my opinion, and to explore with me different sorts of protocols and even to work with additional doctors, like reproductive immunologists. So I basically computed a team of different doctors to work with, and I finally conceived on the 11th attempt, which was also my last attempt.

00:11:39 Rosemary

Yeah. Yeah. You said most people don’t hang in there for that long. Is there an average number of IVF cycles people are willing to go through, or is it varied?

00:11:51 Leila

I think it’s varied. But having said that, the number one reason actually that people stop with IVF is because of the emotional strain. So it’s not what we often think. It’s maybe financial, which of course has a big impact on the couple as well. But it’s really…. People leave because they can’t deal with the emotional strain anymore on themselves and on their relationship. I would say the average is probably four. 

00:12:23 Rosemary

Okay. Yeah. And I’m just struggling to wrap my head around the stress of doing that four times, so… never mind. Eleven. Goodness. Whew. Thank you. Now, to move your story forward a little bit, you gave birth to your daughter nine months after your father passed away. Is that relevant? Would you like to speak about that?

00:12:45 Leila

It’s relevant in the sense that I never wanted to chalk it up to pure coincidence, because it just didn’t… After 11 rounds across six years, I was like, it can’t be that this is a coincidence. There’s more to the story, which I don’t think we have time for today, but.

00:13:05 Rosemary

Maybe you can give us just a little bit.

00:13:09 Leila

Sure.

00:13:10 Rosemary

Thank you.

00:13:11 Leila

I actually embarked on an MDMA private therapy session a few months before my father passed away. My father was actually in the hospital, was in a coma at the time, which I knew about, but I hadn’t been in contact with my father for many years at that point. That session, that MDMA session, was life changing. Let’s just say it was a lot about letting go. And my father passed away about four months after that session. And it’s exactly when I conceived. The thread that I see there, and that has to do also with my earlier childhood, for me, is around this reminder that we need to cultivate in general, that ability to hold many, like, ambivalence, to hold many different truths all at once. And IVF, for me, the entire infertility journey has been about holding what breaks you and what builds you at the same time. Holding hope and despair, holding love and fear. It’s a very ambivalent journey, and for me, my father’s passing was again this reminder of here I was again holding life inside of me and at the same time grieving for my personal journey. It was just a reminder of what I had lived before, since early childhood, and what I was living again, but that this time the difference was Rosemary, that I had a capacity to hold this ambivalence ,as an adult that had a certain emotional maturity. I could hold all these different things. 

00:14:56 Rosemary

Yeah. Is this a good time for you to bring back the thread you opened with about truth?

00:15:02 Leila

Yes. When I said that my work is really about working with clients and cultivating, let’s say, a muscle, for them to learn to hold the truth. And I think, Rosemary, that holding the truth is potentially only possible when there’s a lot of compassion. Because holding the truth just like that, truth, as we know, can be painful. So I don’t think there’s really a lot of healing around truth when we can’t hold it with compassion.

00:15:36 Rosemary

Yeah.

00:15:38 Leila

And compassion without truth is probably not enough.

00:15:42 Rosemary

No. And truth without compassion is not enough either. So it’s again, it’s exactly what you spoke about, the holding what seem to be contradictory emotions at the same time.

00:15:54 Leila

Yes.

00:15:55 Rosemary

Thank you. Now, infertility can be incredibly isolating. You’ve already touched on that. And it can cause physical, financial, and emotional stress. The level of stress associated with an infertility diagnosis has been compared to that experienced by an individual diagnosed with cancer, a comparison that underscores the legitimacy and intensity of the emotional turmoil involved. For many, it becomes a silent struggle, a burden carried without open discussion, which can significantly increase psychological vulnerability. And I’m curious, the World Health Organization, you’ve already quoted them before. They recognize that infertility can be associated with various forms of disability, including physical, emotional, functional, or social challenges arising from its causes, treatments, or societal consequences. I’m curious, Leila, how did you find ways to nurture your own compassion and resilience, through, during your fertility journey? And …I’m sure whatever you say will translate into how you work with your clients today, who are on that path themselves.

00:17:10 Leila

I would say that it was a journey, of course. And actually I came into Compassionate Inquiry right when I was miscarrying. So this was now in 2020. And let’s just say, Rosemary, that I had a lot of self awareness already at the time. I had done a lot of work around my early childhood trauma, even decades at that time. And so first, I would say, infertility wasn’t my first, let’s say, pit stop into having to deal with a major life challenge. Having said that, for someone who had already done a lot of work and thought, ‘it’s done,’ infertility was a stark reminder of all the unhealed places that were still left there sitting and waiting for me to unravel the compassion I was lacking at the time. I had a lot of self awareness. I understood everything. It’s Compassionate Inquiry that actually taught me about the compassion. And not only that, the other thing that was very important that I didn’t realize at the time, Rosemary, was the wider community that I was missing. And to be starting a Compassionate Inquiry training whilst miscarrying and to have an immediate community around you of well meaning people, aware people, or at the very least people wanting to become more aware and wanting to learn about themselves, was if not very healing, was actually crucial. So as I went through the Compassionate Inquiry training, as we know, it’s a very body based framework, so I learned to actually not only sit more and more with what was happening, but actually cultivate that compassion, which then allowed me to sit with the truth, actually, whereas before I knew the truth, but I couldn’t actually sit with it long enough. So it was just truth as a concept, an understanding of things.

00:19:24 Rosemary

How did you find Compassionate Inquiry? What attracted you to the training? Is there a bit of a story there?

00:19:31 Leila

There’s a bit of a story there. I mean, I knew about Gabor since many years. Before that I was living in New York and I had devoured a couple of his books already at that time. But I wasn’t like a fervent follower or anything. And then I moved to Dubai in 2012 and I met someone here who’s a dear friend today, who’s a Kundalini Yoga teacher and trainer across the Middle East. And she told me actually about Compassionate Inquiry because she had just completed, in 2019, the pilot project. She was one of the original, let’s say, I don’t know how many they were maybe 20 of them. And I was like, oh my God. And she was speaking so highly about the program that I said, okay, let me research this. And she’s like, well, I don’t know if there’s much info about it yet because I just finished a pilot project, etc., etc. And anyway, long story short, I ended up signing up in September of 2020, and at that point I was four years into my infertility journey.

00:20:28 Rosemary

Yeah, thank you. So you’ve already spoken about how that training deepened your own understanding of what you were experiencing. I’d like to quote something you said that links fertility and childhood trauma, because I’m not sure if you were so clear on that before Compassionate Inquiry, you said infertility is trauma in its own right, but it also unearths deeper wounds from early life, which you’ve referred to. It leaves no stone unturned. For one in four to six couples, the inability to conceive cracks open layers of shame, isolation, rejection not being chosen and grief that track back to childhood. Infertility has a particular set of stressors. It’s a raw and complex journey for oneself and relationally. Can you say a little bit more about that, please?

00:21:23 Leila

The first thing I want to say is about… we all have a reproductive story. And what I mean by that is the silent threads that shape what we allow ourselves to want, to long for, what we believe we can manage in this life, what we carry when things don’t unfold. This is shaped in early, early childhood. What infertility does is it will, as I said before, it will basically unravel anything that’s unhealing you, because the number one thing that came to me when I understood that I was going to start an infertility journey was, “Why me? Why me again? Why is my body not doing what it’s supposed to be doing? I deserve better.” The typical things that I was struggling with before in early childhood came all back to the surface. The same questions, questions around worthiness, am I not worthy of becoming a mother? And then there’s the bigger existential questions around, who will I be or what will I be when this doesn’t work out? So anyone faced with infertility, you will get triggered. And as we know, when we get triggered, we bring the past into our present moment experience. And infertility is no different there. So the way we deal with it, the way we face it, the way we work with it, or not, those are threads, I think, that come from the past. 

00:22:48 Rosemary

Yeah, yeah. And it’s interesting too. I’m curious. One of the things that comes up in Compassionate Inquiry is who did you tell? And given that link that you’ve just forged between childhood trauma and infertility trauma, if I can use that term, is this sense of isolation, the sense of I’m alone in this. And I’m just wondering if you can speak a little bit about what drives that reluctance to speak, that reluctance to share with community that you found so richly when you did the Compassionate Inquiry or CI training. And even between husbands and wives, because you said it creates relational issues. So I’m sensing that perhaps even the husband and wife aren’t sharing fully with each other.

00:23:40 Leila

You’re absolutely right about that. I think it has to do, Rosemary, with shame. That comes up and grief, inevitably there’s going to be grief. And one doesn’t even have to miscarry in order to feel grief. Infertility is, I always say, it’s a daily grief. The missed cycles, the lab reports that don’t work out the way you want them to work out. It’s a constant sort of grief, small and large. There’s a lot of shame. And I think we all know from experience that people in general are not comfortable with grief. Our immediate surroundings even, and the community at large and the world at large, we’re not comfortable around grief. So when you’re struggling with infertility and you’re dealing with shame, isolation, grief and all that, it’s isolating because they are not typical things that we talk about that we’re comfortable talking about. I was lucky enough, or maybe I was destined, or maybe Compassionate Inquiry found me to land in this amazing space of a wonderful group of students embarking on the same journey and where we’re basically exploring what it’s like to stay with ourselves, what it’s like to be around grief, what it’s like to stay with our own emotional space. But for those that are not falling into Compassionate Inquiry training whilst they’re struggling with infertility, where do you go? 

00:25:15 Rosemary

Yeah, yeah. And it’s not necessarily that they’re not willing, it’s just they don’t know, like, we’re not trained to speak about our feelings, we’re not trained to identify our emotions without something like the CI trainings. Yeah. And what you’ve just illuminated for me is for those who do not continue and choose to say adopt… Paul Sunderland talks about all of the grief that surrounds an adopted child. But what you’ve just shone a light on is what’s going on in the husband-wife dynamic of a couple who give up on trying to get pregnant and bring a child, who’s already coming from an environment of grief, they’re not able to be kept by the birth mother bringing that in. And it’s just there’s so many dynamics at play there.

00:26:06 Leila

There are so many dynamics. And I always talk about the loneliness inside the togetherness.

00:26:11 Rosemary

Yeah.

00:26:12 Leila

When you’re talking about the couple and as a couple, as a partnership coming into the space of infertility, depending on how you enter that space, how strong is your relationship, depending on how you enter it, is how you’re going to deal with it. Of course, there’s inside the couple there’s a lot of isolation, there’s of course shame inside the couple. Depending on, is it male factor, female factor, that there’s all of that going on. There’s a lot of decisions that need to be made, very life changing, important decisions. It’s a lot for any couple that’s even solid to hold because it’s not just emotional it’s mental, it’s financial, it’s physical for one of the two, or maybe both.

00:26:58 Rosemary

It may be both because you’ve already said it’s 50:50, and maybe the woman is having issues initially. And then I can easily imagine that the stress of going through this journey could impact the male fertility as well. Maybe they’re trading off. Gosh, yeah. It’s just. It’s huge. Leila, you said that Compassionate Inquiry offered you the ability to meet yourself with compassion, and you were wrapped in compassion in a community. I’m wondering, since you’ve gone through that training, it’s a few years ago, you’ve worked with lots of individuals and couples and groups. I wonder if there’s a story that you can share, something that happened that really demonstrates the powerful way that Compassionate Inquiry has taught you and that you teach others to meet this struggle with compassion and curiosity.

00:27:55 Leila

I had a lady several years ago who came to me and wanted to explore. She didn’t want to have children. She said she came from a very difficult childhood. She literally was not trusting her own nervous system to become a parent. And we started exploring that, that decision around not becoming a parent because of what she felt she couldn’t handle and that quote, unquote conscious decision that she had made many years before that. And as we started to explore that, very slowly she started unraveling and actually realized, many sessions later, that the decision she had made was a decision that she had a lot of regret about, and that it was actually not a conscious decision. And that it was a decision, again, based on the beliefs, the stories that she was holding around her own capacity to parent, to nurture, based on also the example she lived with as a child. The way we worked with that, Rosemary, is that in that moment of sitting together, there was actually nothing to change anymore. It was about allowing the grief to come up. Because… And I’ve had, actually, now that I think about it, I had several clients telling me that they didn’t want to become parents and then later regretted that decision. And I also want to acknowledge that there are a lot of people that don’t want to become parents and that are very, very solid in that decision. But there are people that make those decisions based on beliefs and stories. So Compassionate Inquiry helps a lot with slowly unpacking all of that. And really, again, we’re speaking about truth. Learning to love the truth, holding the client in, slowly coming to their own truth, their own insights, as to what that decision was actually based on, and then wrapping them into that cultivation of that Muscle of compassion again, because again, we cannot hold that truth without compassion because it’s very painful. Long story short, this client was able to hold that truth with compassion and actually was able to start grieving that decision.

00:30:23 Rosemary

Yeah. You said this has happened with a few different clients. Can you share the sorts of beliefs and stories that might lead someone to think they’re making a conscious decision, when in fact it’s not?

00:30:35 Leila

To be honest, it could be anything. It could sound like, the world is not a… The world is not a safe place to raise children in. It can become that sort of a thing, like it’s not a safe place to raise children in. I’m too stressed out, I’m too anxious as a person. I don’t think I can handle that kind of… That level of responsibility.

00:30:54 Rosemary

The challenge with those kinds of beliefs and stories is we can convince ourselves they’re real and Compassionate Inquiry is part cognitive and part somatic. So I think in your work, when you take people into their bodies, is that helpful for them to discern the truth, to separate the story and the belief, these things that are more in our minds?

00:31:19 Leila

Yes.

00:31:20 Rosemary

From their heart’s desire, if I can put it that way.

00:31:24 Leila

Yes, it is. And I’m very glad you mentioned that because it’s pivotal, actually, to be able to allow the client to sit long enough with themselves, with their bodies, so that they can start feeling many of them for the very first time on what they’re actually feeling. And the compassion component is almost like a biological hurt for people. We tend to. Maybe you can relate to this too. We tend to be very able to have compassion for everyone else around us, but very little compassion for ourselves. And as Gabor often says, that in and of itself is already a trauma imprint. And so even with myself, it was almost like, yeah, like a biological hack, I would say.

00:32:10 Rosemary

Yeah, yeah, that’s how I see it. Because I actually used to be proud of this ability and I’m not anymore. I can convince myself of pretty much anything, that something was a choice when it wasn’t, something was intentional when it wasn’t. This comes from trauma. That comes from protection from keeping ourselves safe. But it also is probably a key part in what keeps us apart from others and what keeps us isolated because we’re not facing our truth. So, that’s one thing I learned when I went through the year long program with Compassionate Inquiry, was that checking it with my gut was invaluable and that my gut was never wrong. I actually did a little bit of an experiment. Let’s just check this out. And the results were 100% gut. Not so good for whatever my mind was telling me.

00:32:59 Leila

Yeah, absolutely.

00:33:02 Rosemary

So you talked earlier about doing a lot of research, your PhD in infertility. I’ve got a few questions coming about doctors and such, but if someone is looking for support through this journey, therapeutic support, coaching support, and they’re doing research, what should they look for? Are there any flags when they’re searching for someone like you that they need to pay attention to and any flags that they need to stay away from?

00:33:31 Leila

That’s a very good question, Rosemary. I would say that not looking for, even though it’s very seductive, I would say not looking for another cheerleader in the person who is going to support you. Because what I’ve learned is that of course it’s good to have a therapist or a coach or anyone around you that is going to cheerlead you through this journey. And at the same time that can actually be quite damaging because there is a fine line between, and I’m speaking also from personal experience, between resilience and desperation. And I remember myself going through this journey of everyone cheerleading me, you’re so resilient, you can do it, you can go for another round. And people would often say exactly that, You’re so resilient. And at one point, Rosemary started asking myself, am I that resilient or am I actually that desperate? And again, is that one of the sort of truths that I need to start holding with compassion? So when people look for someone who’s going to walk alongside you in this wilderness, in this minefield, look for someone who is trauma informed. I think that’s a very important component here. Look for someone who understands childhood trauma, who understands attachment theory. Look for someone who has worked on themselves. I had an experience with a board certified psychologist who basically at one point during our therapy session, asked me if I didn’t think I was too old to conceive. I would say look for someone who has done work on themselves and you don’t have to look for someone who has gone through infertility like myself. I think there’s a lot of very qualified people out there who don’t have the lived experience of infertility who can help you.

00:35:23 Rosemary

I have to imagine, though, that lived experience is so helpful.

00:35:27 Leila

It is helpful in different ways. It is helpful in terms of people, clients, not having to repeat any, not having to explain anything technical, of the process that they’re going through. Because people come to you and they tend to get very technical, especially at first because they want to explain their entire journey and all the details of it, of course. The lived experience is helpful, Rosemary, in really understanding the extent to which this is rough terrain. But having said that, somebody who’s trauma informed, who has done a lot of work on themselves, I think could be a good companion. The red flags, and again, it’s hard to generalize, but still, I’ve noticed that a lot of IVF clinics start setting up their own sort of little psychology department, and there’s often mental health care within the clinic. Personally, I would prefer to go see somebody outside of the clinic. You know, I have to be careful what I say here because I’m sure there’s… again, we can’t generalize, but let’s say I think one could benefit from seeing somebody outside of the clinic where we have all the medical treatments.

00:36:32 Rosemary

Yeah, Yeah. I would agree. And as the minute you said that, I had a red flag go up in my brain. It’s like, conflict of interest.

00:36:41 Leila

I didn’t want to say it, so I’m glad you’re saying it. 

00:36:45 Rosemary

It seems. Yeah. It’s like hiring a personal trainer who’s affiliated with a plastic surgeon in a gym. And supplement companies. Yeah. You’ve illustrated how vulnerable people are going through this journey. So, yeah, research is warranted. And thank you for sharing that. Is there anything else you’d like to say about choosing someone to support you through this journey?

00:37:10 Leila

No. I think that the main thing for me is really somebody who’s trauma informed and who doesn’t see it as a medical issue. I would… This is a personal opinion. I tended to stay away from fertility coaches that are very focused on, again, supplements, and that can become… That can be helpful, but it can also be tricky territory. I always say there’s no amount of green juices or supplements or any of that will probably get you out of that infertility struggle. All of it can be helpful, but I’ve seen that track as well when I went through my journey.

00:37:50 Rosemary

Yeah.

00:37:50 Leila

And I hope you don’t mind me saying this, or the listeners don’t mind me saying this, but there’s almost… So we have the medical industry and then we also have the holistic field. And there’s almost like some sort of spiritual bypass that can be happening when you get then the whole holistic community coming at you, saying, if you’d only just relax and go on holiday, if you eat more proper, if you drink less coffee, it can happen naturally. You don’t have to go. It happened to me many times that I was told you don’t have to go to see a medical doctor for this. I’m sure if you just do all the right things, you could just conceive. So as well meaning as it is, there’s a bit of shaming in that as well.

00:38:33 Rosemary

Yeah. Thank you. I hear that. Now I’m going to switch topics a little bit because I understand you’re preparing to host a Compassionate Inquiry circle which is a 10 week trauma informed healing experience that’s grounded in Gabor Maté’s trauma healing approach. It’s open to everyone, not just those with therapeutic backgrounds or clinical training. So Leila, can you tell us about this new circle that you are piloting in January next year, January 2026?

00:39:09 Leila

Yes, yes, I would love to. So it will kick off mid January, so the week of January 12th. It’s a space again where we will meet for 10 weeks. A space to hold truth. It’s a space where anything and everything will be welcome. Since my work is around holding the truth and Compassionate Inquiry is about inquiring compassionately on where we’re really at in this present moment. This will be the number one focus of this group. So I would invite anyone who’s longing to sit with like minded people, with people that are going through something similar.

00:40:44 Rosemary

Definitely. Definitely. I think that would be amazing. And I wonder if you could speak a little bit more about cleaning up the residue because we may have people listening who are not trauma-informed. If that residue, maybe you’ve decided okay, this is not for me. But you’ve been through the journey for however many cycles. What can leaving that residue unclean, like leaving that within the body? What are the potential effects of that?

00:41:12 Leila

The potential effects, I would say Rosemary, are like, I would say effects of any other major life challenge that hasn’t fully healed, that hasn’t fully metabolized. With infertility, there can be a lot of grief that still…that needs to be felt. It also depends how that journey ended, whether it was your decision or not. There’s a residue of the shame, there’s a residue of the identity loss, because that’s also a big component of infertility, is, Who am I when I don’t become a parent? And so if you’re at that stage where you decided that you stop infertility treatments or you’ve been told that you should stop infertility treatments, that doesn’t automatically stop the identity crisis that’s been unfolding. You’re still… That you’re still sitting with. 

00:42:05 Rosemary

Yeah. And it leaves you holding shame and grief and, you know, if it’s not expressed. I’m just going to suggest for our listeners, you’ve suggested some books and we will get there in a moment. But anyone interested in what can happen to us physically when we carry around trauma residue should read Gabor Maté’s book, When the Body Says No.

00:42:23 Leila

Exactly.

00:42:24 Rosemary

Because as he said, trauma can lead to physical disease if it’s not addressed. Not to be fear mongering or anything, but it’s being informed is invaluable. Thank you, Leila, for creating and pioneering this circle. From everything I’ve read and everything you’ve said, the community aspect of that is going to be so important for the people who participate.

00:42:47 Leila

It’s pivotal. It’s pivotal.

00:42:50 Rosemary

We’re taking a brief pause to share what’s on offer in the Compassionate Inquiry community. Stay with us. We’ll be right back.

00:42:59 Kevin

If you’re not a therapist or a healer, but you heard our guest describe the personal transformations they experienced during their Compassionate Inquiry journeys and wonder, what might that be like for me? There is a program that is offered to anyone who wants to experience the power of Gabor Maté’s approach to trauma healing. I’m Kevin Young and I’ve been facilitating CI Circles since 2022. I’ve seen people transform in many ways. I’ve seen people change beliefs, relationships. I’ve seen people change how they show up in the world. I have seen people literally change how they look in front of my very eyes. There are many many ways that people change during Compassionate Inquiry Circles.

Circles is a 10 week small group experience. Click the link in the show notes. That’ll bring you to a webpage that gives you all you’ll need to figure out if this is for you.

00:44:01 Rosemary

I’m going to shift now to some of the resources you provided for our listeners and they’re in our show Notes. And you shared a few things that have positively influenced or informed your own fertility journey. You recommended Elizabeth Katkin’s book, Conceivability, What I Learned Exploring the Frontiers of Fertility. And before I ask you to comment, which I want you to do, I’m going to share a quote that I came across from Elizabeth, who is a lawyer. She said, “Could the basic premise of five torturous, expensive and sad years worth of IVF, the very cornerstone of Western medical reproductive orthodoxy, be wrong? Could I still have good eggs?” That’s what came up for her in her journey. And she also believes that all of the fertility drugs that she’d taken actually harmed her eggs. Finally, in an article in the New York Post, she offers Five Things Your Fertility Doctor Might Not Be Telling You. And these may be controversial. Leila, you can tell me better because you know a whole lot more than I do. Number one, you can improve your egg quality with alternative medicine. Now, this is not a myth. This is a truth that your fertility doctor may not be disclosing.

00:45:19 Leila

That’s true.

00:45:20 Rosemary

Yeah. Okay. Number two, carrying multiples is risky. Number three, drugs are over prescribed. Number four, there are more options to consider – often. And number five, not all embryo storage is safe.That last one shocked me because I think there is an assumption that it has to be. So would you like to comment on her perspectives, on her book? What would you like to say about this book that you’ve recommended?

00:45:53 Leila

I love that book because that book is all about agency, Rosemary. It’s what we touched upon briefly in the beginning of our conversation today when we were busting one of the myths that fertility doctors know best. And so she definitely busted that myth. Fertility doctors know things and so do we. And that also brings me back to something you mentioned earlier in this conversation about your own experience with Compassion Inquiry in the year long training is to learn to trust your gut. And so we are talking about our own bodies. We are talking about having medical interventions on our own bodies. There is something about trusting our gut. There is something about agency. And what I loved about her book is that it’s all about that, actually. And she talks a lot about the billion dollar fertility market. It’s a book that just gave me that oomph, like, I gotta research more myself. I gotta talk to my doctor more. I gotta go to my doctor and ask the tough questions. And so it’s a book. Yeah. That I recommend because she has a lot of good advice. She’s been through the journey and she’s a lawyer.

00:47:02 Rosemary

Yeah.

00:47:02 Leila

She knows a lot of things.

00:47:03 Rosemary

Yeah, it’s… I was expecting her to be a healthcare professional. So as I dug into the book, it’s, oh, she’s a lawyer. Lawyers have this reputation of being able to do a ton of research, being able to discern the truth. So that’s a great recommendation. Thank you, Leila. I also want to reference one of your favorite authors, Pema Chödrön. She says, When Things Fall Apart, and I’m sure on the journey of infertility, it often feels like things are falling apart. How do you help your clients meet their deepest fears and doubts with compassion and curiosity, when it feels to them like things are falling apart?

00:47:43 Leila

It’s in that unraveling. It’s actually in that collapse is the freedom. And it reminds me of the turning point for myself in this journey. The moment that I decided to really surrender, Rosemary. The moment that I said it out loud, if I’m not going to become a parent, if I’m not to be a mother in this life, I think I will be okay. And that didn’t feel good, actually. That turning point wasn’t like some peaceful moment by the sea where I thought, oh, wow, here it is. No, it was a complete collapse. It was a complete unraveling, actually. And in that, I found agency, if that makes sense. In that, I found a sense of freedom. In that I found a beginning. And in that, the, let’s say, seduction of the victim seat, something that, you know, that’s been part of my story that also doesn’t allow for any responsibility or accountability on one’s end. That actually stopped when I allowed the collapse to happen. And so for the client, in the fear, in the shame, the longing, the despair, the anxiety, the depression, all other things that they may experience. Rosemary. It’s actually in that space, in that unraveling, that the truth, the truth can actually come forward. And with compassion, we can actually hold it. And in that is freedom, and in that is agency. And in that, we have choice, actually, where we’re no longer hijacked by the journey, whether it’s an infertility journey or any other major life challenge. So the other thing I want to say about Pema Chodron is I was really attracted by her because Infertility is uncertainty on a repeat. And so I naturally gravitated towards reading about uncertainty and how to work with that, how to live with that. And infertility is uncertainty and so is life actually, this journey. It’s the illusion of control that we have to let go of.

00:49:56 Rosemary

Yeah. And thank you for sharing that surrender can be messy.

00:50:01 Leila

It’s very messy.

00:50:03 Rosemary

Would you like to share an example? I’m imagining an example, especially with that illusion of control wrapped in. You’re expecting one thing and not only does that not happen, you get something else.

00:50:15 Leila

You get something else. It’s in the mess that it looks like mess… It looks like the feeling of having to completely start over. It looks like being completely overwhelmed. It looks like, I don’t know where to go from here. And what I love about Compassionate Inquiry is actually that it’s slow, that it’s gentle, and that’s what you need when you’re in the mess, that it’s body based, that it’s emotionally attuned. And so once you’re in that mess, those are the ingredients that you need to actually get out of the mess. But yes, in a nutshell, it’s messy.

00:50:53 Rosemary

Yeah. If I could share what I was imagining. It’s almost as if you’ve had a job offer to move to a different country. You’ve sold your house, you’ve packed your belongings, you’ve shipped whatever you want to take with you. It’s already in a container on its way to this new country. Your kids are out of their schools, you’ve got new schools arranged, and perhaps one of the partners is already there setting up house in the new country. And the job offer falls through, the company goes bankrupt, and you can’t go back to what was because what was no longer exists. So you’re not going towards what you thought you were going towards, but you have to reinvent from a place of being, like shocked, thrown. Like… It’s not the deep grieving that you’ve described, but I think it might be a little bit similar to just like the Surrender. And you mentioned Michael Singer and one of his books, and I’m a big fan of The Surrender Experiment that he wrote. And I think even though it’s wonderfully illustrative of how we can surrender to life, I don’t think it’s typical. I don’t think the grace with which he met what life served up for him is the same as what most of us experience.

00:52:12 Leila

That’s very true. That’s very true. And I love the example that you just…. The example you mentioned about the job moving cross country and then the job not working out. Even with that example. I guess it’s really about how do we stay present when the life we choose or the thing we choose doesn’t happen? How do we stay present?

00:52:38 Rosemary

Thank you for bringing that up, because I was just going to ask you if you could recommend or suggest any specific practices. You know, we’ve talked about prayer and surrender and the importance of being present with what is. You just mentioned that, contemplative practices… Can you suggest anything specifically for listeners who are experiencing perhaps their own infertility journeys, or some state of unraveling, that they might be able to use to access some measure of spaciousness or peace, especially when everything feels so out of control and messy?

00:53:16 Leila

Absolutely. I guess it will look… It might look different for everyone. But what worked for me was not the typical thing, that, Why don’t you go for a yoga class? Or why don’t you do have a meditation practice? In the unraveling, in the mess, in the journey. It was about, Rosemary. It was more about micro moments of allowing myself to take up some space with myself. When I would try to have a regular meditation practice or a regular yoga practice or gym or whatever it was, it just added more pressure actually, onto a schedule that was already tied onto clinical appointments. So I was actually trying to release the pressure. And I was working with micro moments of if I can just have five minutes in day where I can sit still, even if it’s standing in my kitchen, even if it’s brushing my teeth a little bit longer, finding those small moments. And what helped me a lot, Rosemary, is…. And this, of course, is not for the people that go on this journey, choosing this journey by themselves, which people that choose to become single parents. But if you are in partnership with someone, if you are in a couple, it was really about working on the couple. And this is also why I pivoted at one point in time towards more couples therapy, versus doing just individual therapy. Because infertility is a journey of two. And so finding something inside that togetherness can be very… Not only healing, but is necessary actually to get through this journey, whether it’s couples therapy or whether it’s finding small things to do together that have nothing to do with infertility, because basically your life is on hold.

00:55:13 Rosemary

Yeah, I love the micro moments. So moments of kindness. My parents were both English, and the ultimate kindness one English person can do for another is make them a cup of tea. Tea solves everything.

00:55:26 Leila

Exactly. Micro moments.

00:55:29 Rosemary

That’s beautiful. So whether it’s standing at the sink, cleaning your teeth, whether it’s washing dishes, whether it’s finding a five minute piece of music on Spotify that just regulates you or calms you down and just giving yourself that space.

00:55:46 Leila

Yes.

00:55:47 Rosemary

Standing in the sun for a few minutes.

00:55:49 Leila

Going for a short walk.

00:55:53 Rosemary

Going to nature, Yes. Breathing, tuning in with your body. There’s so much available right now. So I love that it’s not the discipline of a daily or weekly practice. It’s just, notice when a moment arises.

00:56:09 Leila

Yeah. Take off the pressure. I think with the infertility journey, that’s very important because you already feel like you’re inside a pressure cooker. So then to add more pressure or discipline, I need to do this now every day or every week. That’s why I was looking for these micro moments.

00:56:27 Rosemary

Thank you. That’s a beautiful practice to offer to people. No pressure. And also, it incites curiosity. It’s, what does make me feel good? It’s a very light, beautiful self inquiry. What do I feel like doing for the next five minutes?

00:56:42 Leila

And many people don’t know, actually. 

00:56:45 Rosemary

Yes. Yeah. Feel into it. Just see what’s possible. Ask your friends. Right?

00:56:50 Leila

Yes.

00:56:51 Rosemary

Leila, this has been a wonderful conversation. We’re coming to the end of our time together. Is there anything you’d like to speak about that I haven’t asked you? Any questions you’d like to answer that weren’t asked?

00:57:03 Leila

No. I think this was a very beautiful conversation and I think that we’ve touched upon many different points.

00:57:11 Rosemary

The final question we like to ask on this podcast is, if you could whisper a few words into the ear of the world. It might be a thought, a phrase, words to comfort, or words for people to contemplate. What would you like to say to the world?

00:57:27 Leila

What I would like to say is how we started, is, to our listeners that are faced with this, you’re not alone, you’re not broken. I almost feel like I wanted to say something I’ve already said actually, that truth without compassion isn’t healing and compassion without truth isn’t enough. And so working on that self compassion muscle in whichever way you can, whether that is through Compassionate Inquiry or any other modality or framework, I think that Is life changing.

00:58:05 Rosemary

…and supplementing with micro doses of self compassion and kindness. There you go. I love that. Leila Bahri-Lucas, thank you for joining us today on the Gifts of Trauma podcast. I appreciate you sharing your own journey so openly and vulnerably and for shining the light on so many aspects of infertility that have for too long been hidden by the shadows of shame, loss and grief. Also, thank you for creating a Compassionate Inquiry Circle and for inviting people with infertility issues to join in. The link in the show notes offers more information on that, so if you’re listening and you’re interested, jump on that to be sure to secure your place before registration closes. Again, Leila, thank you.

00:58:55 Leila

Thank you Rosemary. Thank you so much for having me.

00:59:07 Rosemary

The Gifts of Trauma is a weekly podcast that features personal stories of trauma healing, transformation and the gifts revealed on the path to authenticity.

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