00:00:00 Rosemary

When I was in perimenopause and menopause, I was caught in that, ‘working woman, teenage children, aging parents needing support.’ There was so much going on in life that just the thought of slowing down seemed almost impossible. What do you advise people who are resistant to slowing down or prioritizing self-care because they just… they can’t figure out where they might fit that into their life?

00:00:30 Rosio

From my perspective, and I would say not most of my clients, because a lot of my clients… they want to go back to the way they were, the multitasking queens. And we’re not getting back there, we’re not going back. And then being there for them, that was their identity. Their identity was that they could do it all. You mentioned the aging parents, the teenagers. You have your own life, and it’s that, who are you now? Who are you now? And holding space for that.

00:01:01 Priya

Compassionate Inquiry has been such a beautiful gift in this phase of life for giving myself permission to slow down, giving myself permission to go out for a walk, giving myself permission to nap again. Compassionate Inquiry has been very helpful with myself and being with others.

00:01:26 Rosemary

This is the Gifts of Trauma podcast, stories of transformation and healing through Compassionate Inquiry. Welcome to the Gifts of Trauma podcast by Compassionate Inquiry. I’m Rosemary Davies-Janes and this is the third episode of a four part series on menopause. The first episode was released on July 9th. The second episode released on October 30th with Inez Zabalaga and Dr. Kate Hazlitt. Both episodes are linked in the show notes. Today in episode 3, we’ll be talking about the Mind Body Medicine approach to menopause with Dr. Priya Duggal and Rosio Fuentes. Priya was one of our first guests on the Gifts of Trauma podcast back in July 2024. Welcome back, Priya.

00:02:22 Priya

Thanks, Rosemary.

00:02:23 Rosemary

Oh, it’s great to have you here, and welcome for the first time, Rosie.

00:02:27 Rosio

Thank you. It’s great to be here with both of you.

00:02:29 Rosemary

Before we begin, I’ll briefly introduce you both. Priya, you’re a registered naturopathic doctor based in Vaughan, Ontario, Canada. Your practice focuses on women’s health, breast cancer, autoimmune conditions, addictions and mental health. You are also a Compassionate Inquiry Practitioner, Facilitator, educator, Mentor and Circle Leader. Priya, what would you like to add to that very formal brief bio?

00:02:57 Priya
Thanks for that introduction and the bio, Rosemary. Most importantly, I’m sitting here today as a woman who’s going through that phase of life, the adventure of life, menopause. As we started, a woman sitting with many fans, and a shawl with her. I’ll add that to my bio.

00:03:17 Rosemary

Thank you. Now, Rosie, just a quick introduction of you. You’re a Compassionate Inquiry, or CI, sometimes we say CI. You’re a Compassionate Inquiry Practitioner, private mentor, and an excited curiosity coach. Also, you’re the first generation daughter of migrant parents. You live in a neuro- divergent household, and you live with constant physical pain, along with many other issues, allergies and sensitivities. However, you also live with curiosity, gratitude, awe, and love. And I absolutely am enchanted with your email slogan which says, Be silly, Be honest, Be kind. Rosie, we’re so happy you could join us to speak about menopause today. What would you like to add? What would you like to tell our listeners about yourself before we begin?

00:04:10 Rosio

Yeah, similar to Priya, I’m going through it. I’m going through it. And now my perspective is from… coming from being born with a connective tissue disorder. And so just how that experience might be a little different for those that experience life the way I do with menopause. And I do view menopause as this rite of passage, for sure, but I also view it as a, ‘What the hell is going on type situation.’ And so that’s the perspective I’d like to bring.

00:04:45 Rosemary

Wonderful. Thank you. Now, as you both know very well, in Compassionate Inquiry, we have a practice of starting each therapeutic session with an intention. And we continue that practice here on the Gifts of Trauma. I’d love to invite each of you to offer an intention for this conversation today. Who would like to begin?

00:05:05 Priya

I’ll go first. Rosie, is it okay with you? My intention for this podcast is, as I have been through this journey for some time, to really share what changes I made and how they have impacted me. It could be diet, lifestyle, my being, and again, the Compassionate Inquiry process itself, how it brought compassion and kindness to me in this phase of life. That’s my intention.

00:05:33 Rosemary

Thank you, Priya. Rosie?

00:05:36 Rosio

Yeah. My intention is to essentially normalize, right, this process and what menopause does to the human body. And as well as for me personally, how Compassionate Inquiry helped me through the beginning, let’s say two and a half years of this process, and how I’d love to share that with the world. Honestly. Yeah, it was essential. CI was essential for me because it is true for me that without Compassionate Inquiry this journey would have been a lot more difficult than it would have had to have been.

00:06:17 Rosemary

Thank you. Wow. There are so many places we could go with this conversation. And we will. But I thought a rational jumping off point would be to focus on the physiological aspects of menopause. While preparing for this conversation, I researched ‘what menopause related questions do women ask their naturopathic doctors?’ And Priya, I’m curious, as a naturopathic doctor, what questions do women ask you?

00:06:47 Priya

‘Why am I so tired? Why can’t I do the things I used to do before I see some women doing it, why can’t I do it?’ It’s more of judgment on selves. ‘Why is this hurting? Why can’t I sleep well?’ Or, ‘It’s connected to aging.’ Menopause has nothing to do with aging. It’s a phase of life. It’s genetically predetermined. So many questions around societal conditioning of menopause even with the health past or naturopathic health past, with that is more about societal fixing. How do I look this way or how do I manage this then, my own well being.

00:07:31 Rosemary

Thank you. Gosh. To turn a little bit to the therapeutic realm, Rosie, I also researched, ‘What menopause related questions do women ask their therapists.’ So what sort of questions do your clients bring to your office, Rosie?

00:07:49 Rosio

Yeah, it’s not much different than that, but the emphasis is on the lack of the things I’m no longer doing, the things I’m no longer able to do. And then there’s the self judgment that comes along with that. There’s also lack… the lack of sexual drive, I’m no longer interested in my husband, or there’s another lack. I lack the wherewithal to complete mundane tasks, and the self judgment that comes with it.

00:08:22 Rosemary

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for defining some of the lack. Now Priya, I want to turn back to you. For those who haven’t worked with a naturopathic doctor, do naturopathic approaches address root causes or symptom management, or both?

00:08:36 Priya

It’s a beautiful question, Rosemary. Thanks for that. I would say both. A big part of menopause symptom management is educating the woman. It’s a unique phase, or a unique issue which is going on, which is mostly overlooked or minimized. Saying it’s a natural universal thing which happens, at the same time the body is going through lots of physiological changes. It’s a reset happening. And with that reset, how do I shift? Again… It again comes to Compassionate Inquiry. ‘How do I slow down? How do I give myself time?’ There’s a lot with that. There’s a lot which we can do at our end. And so naturopathic treatment is a lot about educating and helping with diet, lifestyle, acupuncture, other things come in place. But I would say the biggest piece of this is education.

00:09:34 Rosemary

Okay, so let’s start by talking about the physiological aspects of menopause. Priya, this is clearly your lane, but Rosie, please feel free to offer your perspectives if you choose to. First question, Priya. Every woman who’s been through menopause knows that it impacts her brain. But I don’t know that many of us know how it impacts the brain. What’s going on during menopause?

00:10:01 Priya

Again, beautiful question, Rosemary. With our brain, we have estrogen receptors on our body from head to toe. So with menopause, our estrogen has gone down, our progesterone has gone down, so we do not have that protective… estrogen is neuroprotective. It’s protecting our brains. Everything with the neurocircuitary, with our responses, it’s a protection. So does progesterone, our HPA axis, which we talked a lot about in Polyvagal, it’s destabilized when we don’t have the progesterone. Progesterone helps with the GABA receptors to calm us down. We need progesterone to sleep well. So with all this, the cushion or the support is gone. So the brain fog, not able to sleep well, little things of life touch us, we become so sensitive, or, ‘Oh, I can’t even talk to you’. Is what we hear so often. So that’s because that protection, the cushion, is taken off. Now that’s what happens to the brain.

00:11:06 Rosemary

So is it a chemical change? Are there different chemicals happening in the brain that trigger what you’ve just described?

00:11:13 Priya

Again, we…. I’ll come back to Compassionate Inquiry. We have three brains, right? Our brain, our heart and the gut. So most of the chemicals we talk about are, our serotonin and dopamine, which affects our mood, our motivation. And the majority of the serotonin, about 80% is made in the gut. And we need a healthy gut microbiome. We are more bacteria than humans. We need a healthy gut microbiome to produce that serotonin. Again, with the estrogen not there, dopamine is not functioning well. So all this we need estrogen, we need progesterone for our dopamine to work well.We know when we talk about sex hormones, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, we tend to believe it’s all about sex. They all have been the function of sex. They have a huge influence on our mood and cognition.

00:12:07 Rosemary

Yeah, and I love to understand the brain chemistry that’s happening because it’s not only the head that sits on top of our neck, it’s involving the heart brain and the gut brain. And it’s connected to emotions and moods. I love that. If I can flip from brain chemistry of our three brains to metabolic shifts, what sorts of shifts can women expect to experience during menopause?

00:12:33 Priya

The biggest shift which happens with menopause is, and again we’ll come back to perimenopause with the use of estrogen and progesterone. Estrogen primarily ,our brain is utilizing glucose as an energy source. So the major shift that happens is because of the lack of estrogen in the system, the brain doesn’t function or is not able to utilize glucose well. And what happens physiologically is insulin resistance.In other terms, if I can simplify this, our body is producing lots of insulin, but the receptors are not taking it in, they’re not taking glucose in and hence the brain fog. How would we know that we have insulin resistance? There’s something called metabolic syndrome. So our blood sugars are going high our impaired blood sugars. Even if we have not reached diabetes, pre diabetic levels, abdominal fat is coming up, the lipids are being deranged, especially the triglycerides. Our liver function test, the ALT, the liver enzymes, they are increasing, blood pressure is going up. So insulin resistance is one of the major causes of the health conditions which we have, if this is not taken care of. So menopause is like a tipping point. If you look at this, there’s two roads going and it’s a great place for…a critical place I would say for prevention. If I take care of myself, slow down, change my diet so that my brain adapts to use ketones or fat rather than glucose, less carbs in the diet. This is the health road. I sleep well, sleep hygiene, take my time, soak in the sun, slow down. So this is the road to health. If I continue to live the same crazy, run-run life, then the health conditions come.

00:14:29 Rosemary

Yeah, it sounds like we need to make some space for ourselves and increase self-care. I have a question planned for later in the interview, but I’ll bring it forward. The remedy for many, many ailments and issues is exercise and good nutrition. And what you’ve just said suggests that exercise and good nutrition play a vital role in management of our experience of menopause.

00:14:53 Priya

Absolutely. A huge role. And when I started today’s podcast, I was talking about what changes I’ve made in myself, and the impact it has caused. Again, intermittent fasting. We hear a lot about intermittent fasting these days. And again in my Naturopathic practice. I see a lot of women prolonging the fast. I really would like to take this opportunity to share that prolonging the fast or overly prolonged fasts do not help us. It might counter the benefits of it. So really listening to the body, differentiating between starvation and boredom, I want to eat because I’m hungry or I’m bored. So that’s really different. And again, it’s common knowledge, we all know, high sugar, high fat processed foods are not good for us. Coming back to a keto alkaline diet. Less grains, less meat, less acidic foods, more alkaline. It really helps for the metabolic shifts.

00:15:52 Rosemary

Wonderful, thank you. My last really physiological question is about female cardiovascular health. I understand that menopause can be connected with heart issues. Can you say a little bit more about that?

00:16:05 Priya

Again, estrogen, our savior, estrogen gave us that protective cushion over males, on all over reproductive lifestyle. This. We are at low risk for cardiovascular events because of the protection of estrogen. It helps in dilatation of our vessels. It produces nitric oxide which keeps our lipid levels good. So we are protective and verbein when this falls down. And in combination of insulin resistance, we are, if not higher at the same risk of cardiovascular events as men. And it has been observed that female cardiovascular events get less attention or less noticed in an emergency. If a female goes with a chest pain versus a male who has a chest pain, the intervention, the timing or the urgency of intervention. It has been noted that it is taken for granted that females have less of this, or more attention goes there and there are more events which have happened.

00:17:07 Rosemary

Yeah. And really what those people in the emergency rooms need to pay attention to is what is the age of the woman being admitted complaining of chest pains. Ah, thank you, that’s really good to know. Rosie, would you like to say anything about these issues that I’ve been discussing with Priya?

00:17:24 Rosio

Yeah, thank you. And Priya, thank you for the way in which you explained all of that. And I noticed as we do, very much so in Compassionate Inquiry, it’s as I listen, what’s going on with me, right? What’s going on for me right now as I’m listening to you? And yeah, a lot of emotion because I, I was that person, right, in the ER because something was going on with my heart that was a little different than what I had been accustomed to. And now I’m on high blood pressure medication. I was also just not feeling well at all and I didn’t know what it was. They went through and checked my thyroid Levels. I went to an endocrinologist, and now I’m on thyroid medication. Right. And I’m one that used to only be on allergy medication. Okay, so now I’m on medication for thyroid, for high blood pressure, as well as I advocated for myself and finally said, I need this estrogen, whatever this is and whatever this pill might look like, I don’t care. I need it because of what you named, like that brain fog and what was occurring. And I understand that, and I think we all do. We’ve heard it, right, that if one eats well and exercises, right, then that that pretty much cures everything, honestly. But it’s so difficult, right, to get there. And especially it was for me. It was very much for me. And I still haven’t managed to get my diet just right because I’m still struggling a bit with the wherewithal to do that, because it is a bit overwhelming. And it goes back to the excited curiosity coaching with my clients, is that advocacy, and starts when they’re young, start in their 30s to start educating women that, hey, this will happen. However, the impact of it does not have to be, as, I’ll just say, as horrific as it was for me. I honestly thought I’d go through menopause the way my mom did. She had hot flashes. That’s it. And not that’s it. But I thought, I’m going to be just like my mom, though. I got the full gamut of it. Thank you for sharing what you did. And it just reinforces my intention, right, to make sure that women are aware that this is to come and what they can do. And if they need the white man’s medicine, then we take that, too. But then we can also do things for ourselves, to help ourselves. So, yeah. Thank you.

00:19:51 Rosemary

Thank you, Rosie. And I love that you mentioned, you know, the apparent ease that your mom had. Earlier generations were not encouraged to talk about menopause. There were shameful aspects of it because it was linked to aging and loss, as has been touched on before. So it’s interesting. It’s very possible that it is more challenging today because we live in a much more toxic world, which also was flagged by the challenge of eating in a very nutritious way. It’s getting harder and harder with all of the processed foods to actually do that. But where I’d like to land is on what you said about your mom. She experienced hot flashes. Hot flashes are a very big topic in menopause, and I’d love to hear what each of you have to say about those. Rosie, would you like to start?

00:20:40 Priya

Sure.

00:20:40 Rosio

And I joked previously that they weren’t hot flashes. These are heat waves that come across my body. And they did stop. The day I took that first pill, they stopped. I live in Las Vegas, and we get 110, 115 degrees in the summer, and I love it. I’m always outside, and I love being outside. The first time I experienced being heat intolerant, there were, like, pins and needles throughout my entire body. And all I could think of was, wow. I’ve always wondered about people that were heat intolerant and saying, really? You can’t handle, like, a hundred degrees? Like, I always wondered because I didn’t experience it. Not what’s wrong with you, but what do you go through? Right? I was going through it, and I had to go in immediately. And it felt like my skin was burning. That was a telltale sign that something was shifting. And this is where, like I said, Compassionate Inquiry for me was key because I learned to, okay, listen, what’s going on? What’s going on? And I’ll get emotional here, too, because there is something going on, and my body is telling me something. And I go to whom, we say, the white coats. The white coats. Because I’m thinking they’re gonna have the answers, knowing that they won’t. The answers are within me, and how to slow down about it. And then the next day, you go outside again, and then here’s the heat wave. Or it was just an awful experience. I did experience inside the home as well. Heat rising. But as I mentioned, as soon as I took that first estrogen pill that first day, it was gone.

00:22:26 Rosemary

Thank you, Rosie. Priya. Hot flashes. What would you like to share with our listeners?

00:22:31 Priya

What best explained hot flashes to me was traditional Chinese medicine. And in Chinese medicine, the way hot flashes are explained as, “the rising of yang fire” in us and it has a purpose. Whatever is our unfinished business, the untapped potential in us that’s rising now, that’s calling on me, knocking on my doors. And to balance it is balancing the yin of it. And how do we do that? Again, by slowing down, by nourishing food, by nourishing our kidneys, which hold the yin. Yang, dries up the body fluids that explains the symptoms of menopause. Hot flashes, it dries it up. And so, again, coming back to acupuncture, supporting our kidneys, the three big things which are happening in menopause and in adrenals producing cortisol, stress management. It’s all about that. If we take care of our Cortisol levels. We need our just optimal levels. Not high, not low, just optimal. And listening to our body, our body tells us everything. It has a lot of wisdom in us. Only if we close our eyes and say, hey body, what would you like to do in this moment? And wait for an answer. It tells us. And one more thing. Hot flashes are also nature’s or our body’s wisdom to throw the toxins out. It’s the wisdom of the body. So with the sweat, we are throwing all environmental pollutants out. So as much as it’s uncomfortable, know that it’s a detox happening. Detox of mind, body, spirit. And the best thing to do about it is keeping a towel with you where you can wipe off so that the body doesn’t reabsorb your toxins. Or if you’re able to, take a shower.

00:24:29 Rosemary

Beautiful. Thank you Priya. I love what you said. The body is warning us. So for those who are just trying to carry on as usual or power through, the body’s going to…. I’ll put it this way. If you think the body’s yelling at you now, the body’s going to really amplify what’s happening if you don’t follow Priya’s advice and take it easy, create some space and just really take care of yourself. Based on our conversation so far, I’m curious to learn whether addiction patterns might emerge or intensify maybe during menopause.

00:25:07 Priya

Interesting question. What is addiction? It brings back to that. And what do our addictive patterns do for us? They meet our unmet needs in some ways. They soothe us, they hold us. So if we are not able to make the time for ourselves, give ourselves nourishing food, at the end of the day, I would grab some sugar, some dopamine for myself. I need that. On the other hand, if I had time to cook or have a nourishing meal, have some time for myself, get some sun, get some fresh air. Breath is the biggest medicine we carry inside. So if I have utilized all that, I don’t need the external support of our addictive patterns, even if behaviorally…. I think of it as I said, there’s a lot of transformation happening in our psyche as much as the body. So it’s an inner calling. Whatever the voices which we hear around this time, our dreams coming up, listening to our intuition. See if I bypass that.

00:26:12 Rosemary

Thank you, Priya. I’m just thinking. I remember… I am post menopausal. So I’m feeling very blessed right now that this is behind me. But when I was in perimenopause and menopause. I was caught in that, ‘working woman, teenage children, aging parents needing support.’ There was so much going on in life that just the thought of slowing down and following your advice, Priya, seemed almost impossible. I’m sure you hear this from many of the patients coming into your office. What do you advise people who are resistant to slowing down or prioritizing self-care because they just… they can’t figure out where they might fit that into their life.

00:26:57 Priya

With me going through that, I have done it for years, suggesting to others, but I have noticed when I… And it took me years, Rosemary, trust me to listen to myself. I knew all that. It was so easy to tell others, but really to listen when it was like, ‘What is it?’ This is not how my life ends or what it should be or something is not okay about it. It’s when I made the different changes in my own self. I have the compassion for others, for whatever reason, they’re not able to or not there yet. So when I’m with them, it’s really holding that space. And I’ve seen the shift which happens. Sharing my place in it Again, Compassionate inquiry has been very helpful with myself and being with others.

00:27:52 Rosemary

For the doctor to admit that she struggled with that herself. I think we’ve got to get over what’s going on in terms of our self perception, before we can do this self-care. So please, Rosie, whatever you’d like to share about what we’ve been talking about… addiction patterns.

00:28:08 Rosio

Yeah, I think that’s spot on too. And being able to share that with our clients in that we go through it as well. Just to answer that question a little more, is that, what I’ve seen and for myself personally, is that if we do not take the time, the body keeps the score. As we all know an event will happen, where we must slow down, right? And then from there in that slowing down, where the wisdom of our body just knocks us on our ass, and we’re on the couch or in the bed for a week. From there is when we start to begin to say, okay, what else can I get rid of this week? What can I offload? What can I delegate and rebuild – your new normal? Because it’s not necessarily from my perspective, and I would say not most of my clients, because a lot of my clients, they want to go back to the way they were, the multitasking queens. And we’re not getting back there, we’re not going back. It’s not possible. And so it’s that and then being there for them, right? Being there for them, because that was their identity. Their identity was that they could do it all. You mentioned the aging parents, the teenagers, and you have your own life. And it’s that, ‘Who are you now? Who are you now?’ And holding space for that. Right? Normalizing and just all holding space for that. And your body will tell you and your body will slow you down. It will. And you’re either going to fight it or listen to it, as hard as it is and allow it to be accepted.

00:29:50 Rosemary

And I’m guessing perhaps the resistance to change that you mentioned, the wanting to hang on to the multitasking queen title that they worked hard to earn, and it sounds like it gave them some pride. It’s connected to what we spoke about at the beginning. It’s the loss… There’s some shame perhaps attached to that. So I wonder if we could talk a little bit… and Rosie, since you’re on the hot seat, let’s continue, talk a little bit about the role of authenticity in symptom resolution. How can inauthenticity, which I think we’ve just touched on, create physical symptoms when it comes to menopause?

00:30:29 Rosio

Yeah. From my experience and Gabor’s, The Myth of Normal. Right. We’ve had a lot of examples of living an inauthentic life. And I have to be honest, in listening to Priya, I, like I said, I’m in the United States. And so I think, wow, if we had more doctors like her here, what would that be like? What would that be like? Because it’s just not the way. And so we’re raised this way here in the United States. And I, let me, let me shift back to the question and that I’m… having a menopause moment of wanting to go here and there. Yeah.

Is it inauthentic when that’s what we’ve been raised to know. Right. We’ve been raised in the hustle and bustle. We’ve been raised that we must do this and that and this in order to essentially survive. There’s so many women here who are in single parent households, and so they have to be that multitasking queen. Is that living inauthentically? Yeah, you’re living for everybody else, but that’s all you know. And there’s a little emotion here because then there’s the, how to normalize it without shaming it. How to normalize that. Yes, you can actually live authentically. You can. But damn it, you need time to learn what that’s even… what it is to live authentically and how to do it carefully without shaming them into that process.

00:31:46 Rosemary

And how can they do it without blowing up their life?

00:31:49 Rosio

Yeah, because they’re in survival mode, especially with the single parent households, where they’re the only ones bringing in the income. And so it’s how to live authentically, how to let go of half of the things that you used to do, and then learning how to eat properly, learning that you can go work out, you can go for a walk, and you can do all of that without shame. Right. You can authentically focus on yourself without the shame that you’re not doing everything for everybody. And it’s a balance and it’s a… It’s essentially a shock to the system to think that’s actually possible.

00:32:34 Rosemary

It’s beautifully said. The many ways in which we’ve adapted to life run deep. I actually had to learn how to breathe properly because I got into this strange pattern, especially when I was really focused working on the computer, that I would every once in a while gasp and take in air and realize I hadn’t been breathing for the last few seconds. It can be as basic as that. We’ve got to really look broadscale at how we’ve been operating and functioning. And I felt dumb. I have to learn how to breathe properly. You know, you talked about shaming, but whatever we do to take care of ourselves, I think it’s really worth keeping that lens wide open.

00:33:15 Rosio

One more thing that came to mind in living authentically, like authentic for me, was to say, I need that pill, whatever that is, I need it. After two and a half years of going through all of these, all of these changes where I thought, oh my gosh, have I been masking ADHD? Am I autistic? So many things went through my mind, right, when I was going through this and I needed that medicine. And that was authentic for me. And I’ll figure out how to wean myself off of it at some point, that balance act, but for that moment in time, that is me living in my authenticity, that I do need the white man’s medicine to be okay for now, and to get me to where I’m at, a baseline, and then I can work from here with everything that I just learned from Priya that I can do for myself.

00:34:04 Rosemary

Yeah, very well said, Priya, you’d like to add something to this?

00:34:08 Priya

I was experiencing my body responding to all these questions as this beautiful conversation was going on between the two of you. How do I allow myself that? How do I give myself permission? How do I do that? And what comes is, again the compassion, or the curiosity? ‘Why don’t I do it?’ Asking myself with compassion, then judgment and giving myself that permission to me in this journey. Again, I’ll keep repeating myself. Compassionate inquiry has been such a beautiful gift in this phase of life for giving myself permission to slow down, giving myself permission to go out for work, giving myself permission to nap.

00:34:56 Rosemary

We’re taking a brief pause to share what’s on offer in the Compassionate Inquiry community. Stay with us, we’ll be right back. 

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Rosie, you bring a very unique lived experience to this conversation. I wonder if you could share, if you’re willing to share, your own experience of menopause in, the simplest term would be a complex body. How has your menopause experience unfolded? And perhaps you can fill in our audience a little bit about what it is that you’re dealing with.

00:36:24 Rosio

Yeah, thank you… Thank you for that. So I was born with a connective tissue disorder called Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, EDS. And it, it impacts my entire body. And so what it is, in its simplest form is we’re born with a couple of collagen genes. And so one of my genes are faulty. And so what that means is that I am essentially like one of these lanky rubber bands that are about to burst. And it just did. Where people who are, quote unquote normal, they’re wrapped more like a coil. I’m more stretchy. And so that stretchiness is everywhere. It’s in my heart, my eyes, my tongue, my ears, every part of my body. And with it comes pain. So I’m in pain every moment of my life. Okay? That’s my reality. I’ll show you guys.

So this is what I can do. [Rosie stretches out her cheeks to demonstrate.] This is a part of who I am. I love this. And I love me, right? It’s a part of me. It’s who I am. And that goes a long way as well, right? 

Being able to love me and love this body that I was given. And so when perimenopause came and the estrogen, and I didn’t know literally what was going on. I didn’t know what was going on. All I knew is that the pain that I feel daily in my hands, everywhere… and I sublux all the time. [Sublux is a shortened term for subluxation, which is a partial dislocation of a joint.]  I don’t dislocate, thankfully, but I sublux. Every part of me goes out and in when I move. It amplified, and it was a pain that was above my baseline of pain. And I was curious, what is that? And I would… Compassionate Inquiry, thank God for CI in that I was able to reflect and CI myself. Because you know what? I’ll be honest with you. I didn’t have the capacity to have somebody hold space for me and that I was doing it on my own. Right?

That was my wherewithal to at least do it for myself. Right. Check in with myself, what’s going on? What’s going on? And so my body was telling me something, because there’s this level of intensity that is just above that baseline. And that’s when I sought out the doctors, but only when I started researching and reading, that connective tissue, like estrogen is all about that. like, it’s all over that. And so obviously a lack of that, right, Is going to impact me a little harder perhaps, than most. My mom doesn’t have eds. I got EDS from my father, which is why, perhaps, her experience was different than mine. So I didn’t see it coming. But as soon as I read that ,what role estrogen played in connective tissue is when I knew, I need that medicine for now, until I can figure out what I can do for myself so that I don’t need it. Because there’s also this stigma with me. I grew up with natural medicine, homeopathic medicine, and so taking medicine is. Whoa. And like I said, right now I’m on thyroid med, I’m on a heart med, I don’t want estrogen. And I’m living authentically with all three and saying it’s okay. It’s okay. It’s more than okay. Are you kidding me? It’s allowing me to survive. But, yeah, it. Just because of my condition, it intensified everything, Even my gastric issues that I have. Everything. My eyesight. I’m in glasses now. 

00:39:59 Rosemary

Wow. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And that leads me to another question. There are a lot of people with genetic conditions, like you, autoimmune issues. I haven’t heard any other conversations bringing those conditions into the menopause experience. Why are we not hearing more of this? Do you have any thoughts on that, Rosie? And then I’ll turn to Priya because I know autoimmune issues are your sweet spot.

00:40:27 Rosio

Yeah, the only place I hear them on are on my Facebook groups where I’m in there with folks with autoimmune conditions. And yeah, this is where I can feel me right now. Like this is where my… that rage, that good rage comes in. And that, wow, my doctors should have known. Cuz they know of my eds, right? They know of this. And even though I was self advocating for myself, it’s like, why isn’t this being talked about? And then if we know people with conditions like mine, even though it’s a rare disorder, okay, so you can go to a doctor and not everybody knows, you know, what Ehlers Danlos Syndrome is. But for those that do like mine, why didn’t they put two and two together? It kept going back every month. I kept getting tests and whatnot done. And so what I’ve done because of that and in my limited capacity, because I don’t have much right now, is started to talk about that and starting to talk about menopause and what happens with people like us. We call ourselves zebras, people with rare diseases have the zebra as the mascot. But to talk about it and to ensure that it does not happen right, to the generations, like to my nieces or the generations that are coming up, no one should have to go through this. No female should have to go through this. They should not. They should not. And I’ll end it there because I am so passionate about this.Yeah.

00:41:52 Rosemary

I hear your passion. Oh, I love it. I love your passion. Priya, I’m sure you’d like to say some words on this.

00:42:00 Priya

First of all, Rosie, your passion is so palpable. I loved it. It landed so beautifully when you said, this is me and I love me. So beautiful and so authentic. It’s beautiful, Rosie. And at times, the most kindest thing you can do to yourself is to take the medicines that could be the most kindest act of compassion. Just wanted to say that. And coming back to your question, Rosemary, this question brings me to the thought of mind-body medicine. Now, when we talk of autoimmune conditions, unfortunately in conventional medicine they’re dissected organ to organ. This is about thyroid autoimmune condition of thyroid, rheumatoid arthritis is about connective tissues. So it’s really dissected. And we humans, we cannot separate the mind, the body and the thoughts. So all this, it’s an orchestra going on inside our thoughts. They have our breathing starting from our breath. We can change our moods when we shift our breath patterns, when we are consciously breathing. So our breath, our thoughts, our hormones. We can regulate our hormones through our breathing cycles by giving ourselves regular breaks every two and a half hours. I can go on and on and explain the science behind it, but there’s a rhythm going on inside. And when we hijack that rhythm and we abandon the self, the autoimmune condition comes in. And that’s where I would say the conventional medicine is not going on with this. And that leads to that frustration of not having an answer to it. Why? Why is it not being talked about? Is hormone related to it? Is my stress related to it? Of course, absolutely.

00:43:48 Rosemary

I love the metaphor of an orchestra because as I was listening to you, I was thinking our nervous systems are tied in, our stress responses as you just said, all of this shifts depending on what’s happening to us in the moment. Being in menopause and any autoimmune or genetic conditions that we bring into that, I will be a little ironic here, in the menopause party. I wonder which of you would like to speak. I’m sensing the importance of compassionate individualized care. Who’d like to speak to that?

00:44:22 Priya

Rosie, would you like to go first?

00:44:24 Rosio

Yeah, I’ll go. But then you can wrap it up. It’s so important that we self advocate, that we seek those that can help and someone like Priya, naturopathic doctors, anyone that can help us attune to ourselves. And the sooner we do that, it can ease any and all symptoms leading to this, to this thing we call menopause, this identity. Like menopause is identity work for real, right? It asks who I am without the doing. And if we don’t, not necessarily solve that, but if we don’t tap into that, who am I without all the doing, then it’s going to be much harder. And in order to do that, you must get individualized care. You must. It’s a must. Circles, whatever they are, one-on-one therapy, naturopathic doctors. I’m sure there’s podcasts or YouTube videos, but it is so important, so that you don’t go through what we’ve gone through.

00:45:31 Priya

Adding to this, we all go through life differently. We all have different life experiences. So each one of us, our menopause is different. We can’t have a blanket therapy for everyone. This is one thing. Take it, you’ll be fine. So really seeing who is in front of you, listening to that person, their life, what, where is it that they need help? An example of this is, the hormone replacement therapy works wonders for some women. Especially with the insulin resistance, we give estrogen, things start working again. A healthier other woman who does not have insulin resistance, who is sensitive to insulin, might not benefit much from hormone therapy. Little changes in her diet and lifestyle would go a long way. So an individualized care is much more needed in this aspect.

00:46:25 Rosemary

Very good points. We are coming close to the end, but I do have a couple more questions and this one is for you, Rosie. I am so curious to find out how your approach as a Compassionate Inquiry Practitioner supports your clients through the hormonal changes that menopause brings.

00:46:42 Rosio

Yeah. Holding space. Holding space. Even if it’s… And Gabor speaks of this, right. Whether it’s trauma or for whatever reason they’re in front of us, it’s being that empathetic abiding presence, and then being able to have an appropriate self disclosure of, I’ve been through it too, and so I can sit and hold space with them. There have been times where they’re going through a hot flash, i.e: Heat wave right in the middle of a session and we’re sitting there going through it together. I’m there with them and we go through that uncomfortableness together. And, I’ve seen the power of that and how it normalizes the process. And I didn’t realize what was going on until Priya mentioned something earlier. But in me being able to be there for them during those particular moments, it allows them to remember that when they’re not with me, and they can practice that in that, okay, not a moment. Okay. It’s going to be about a minute, a minute or two, but I can sit with this. I can sit with this. And so that’s what Compassionate Inquiry has, has done for me with the training and the practicing, is just being that empathetic, abiding presence. For them and myself, frankly, and myself, it’s like a two way. It’s that mirror.

00:48:07 Rosemary

Yeah, thank you, Rosie And Priya, I think the overriding image I’ll walk away from this conversation with is that integrated approach, the head brain, the heart brain, the gut brain and the word you used, which is a very strong word, about the medical practice of dissecting the body parts, compartmentalizing everything. So I’m very curious, obviously you are also a Compassionate Inquiry Practitioner. How does that come into your work? Do you merge that with your patients who come to you as a naturopathic doctor in that there’s some therapeutic work required. You’ve got so many skill sets. How do you weave them together? Or do you? When women come in talking about menopausal issues.

00:49:00 Priya

Thanks, Rosemary, for this question. This answer is in continuation of what Rosie was talking about holding the space, acknowledging, validating. And this is, what, am I going crazy? What’s happening to me? Why am I like that? So really holding, acknowledging, holding that space, listening to them, that they’re not crazy, this is something real which is happening to them, makes a huge shift in it. That’s the cornerstone when they’re seen and heard, more receptive to the suggestions of what diet can do, what this can do. When we were talking about it, the imagery which came to me was, you know, women of all ages, our daughters, our sisters, grandmas, mothers from all walks of life, sitting together in circles, holding space and talking about it. It was beautiful, Rosie, when you said we have to start young, teach them when they’re young, that this would happen in womanhood. So really holding that space or creating those circles. And to women who are going through menopause, I would love to end this saying it’s the second girlhood. Menopause is the second girlhood. As girls around 8 or 10 years old, that’s when our authentic self is really crystallized. I know that I like to do that. And then we keep it all in inside due to the societal expectations or pressures. So this is the time to take that box out and let that girl out.

00:50:34 Rosio

I want everyone to know what’s available for them. Both sacred stuff like Priya’s work, the natural approaches and the medicinal ones. That’s what I’d love everyone to know so that they’re informed.

00:50:48 Priya

And the Compassionate Inquiry. Sorry to… I was so passionate about it.

00:50:54 Rosio

Yeah, 100%.

00:50:56 Rosemary

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Because that’s where you can sort out what’s actually going on with you. And we have so much information available to us these days online. Not all of it is accurate, but we do tend to that pattern that starts when we’re young. It’s… There must be something wrong with me. So we go traveling down this tunnel after that piece of cheese, and we go that tunnel after that piece of cheese. And the beauty of Compassionate Inquiry is you can share all of these notions and really pull the threads apart and find out what’s actually going on, where you need to put your focus. So I think you’ve both done a beautiful job of covering that. Second last question. Do you have a pearl of wisdom to leave with our listeners?

00:51:44 Priya

Be kind to yourself. In this phase of life, don’t compare yourself to anyone else. You are you. You have your own life circumstances.

00:51:57 Rosemary

Thank you, Priya. Rosie, what would you like to share with our listeners? Just as something to contemplate as we wrap up this conversation?

00:52:06 Rosio

I think it might be an invitation to listen to what happens to your body when trying to adapt to change, and how can we listen more rather than resist it? That invitation. 

00:52:22 Rosemary

Beautifully said, thank you Rosie. Dr. Priya Dugagal, Rosio Fuentes, thank you so much for being with us today. It’s been such a rich conversation. I’d also like to thank our listeners for being here today and invite you to join us next week on the Gifts of Trauma podcast by Compassionate Inquiry for the fourth episode in our Menopause series. If you missed the first few episodes, those links are in the show notes.

00:52:47 Priya

Thank you so much, Rosemary. It’s been such a joy to be with both of you.

00:52:51 Rosio

Yeah, thank you both.

00:53:05 Rosemary

The Gifts of Trauma is a weekly podcast that features personal stories of trauma healing, transformation and the gifts revealed on the path to authenticity. 

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