00:00:01 Desirée

There are of course different reasons why people split up, and it could also be going really well in harmony. But the challenge with the split up is, really a phase of grief where people can have gone different directions, or the love is not there anymore. Or sometimes there is another person. There are different ways of splitting up. But especially with children, it takes really an effort to make that work, to deal with your own grief and pain, of the loss of the relationship, and at the same time maintaining or developing a new relationship as parents. What I learned from my therapist, at the time, we were in therapy with the father of my child, is that she said there are two ways, you have the old challenge and the pain, you can either have the most part beforehand, or after the split up. And she said it’s best to have it beforehand in the sense that you try to figure it out. You’ll find a therapist and you’d have good conversations. Because once the split is there or somebody wants to divorce, it’s very hard, really to invest in the new relationship of parents, because people tend to run away from the other, tend to run away from the situation and the pain, and so it’s more difficult to get along. So it’s really worth it to find a therapist, to think about it and to invest in it. And if you come to the conclusion altogether that this is what is needed, to end a relationship, it’s a different starting point, to get along as parents.

00:01:45 Rosemary
This is the Gifts of Trauma podcast, stories of transformation and healing through Compassionate Inquiry. 

Welcome to the Gifts of Trauma podcast. I’m Rosemary Davies-Janes, and today I’m joined by Desiree Van den Brouk. Desiree, it’s a delight to have you here today. Welcome to the show.

00:02:14 Desirée
Oh, thank you so much, Rosemary. I’m really happy to be here.

00:02:17 Rosemary
Now, Desiree, I find your professional path fascinating, so let’s start there. You first worked in medicine. You were a doctor, an intern, and a healthcare manager. But before that, in your second year of med school, you became a teaching assistant and communication skills and went on to gain a great deal of expertise in therapeutic education. Or would it be medical education?

00:02:41 Desirée
It would be called at that time, medical communication. So it’s the good of both worlds, you’d say.

00:02:47 Rosemary
Very nice, but you chose to leave medicine quite early in your career. Can you tell us about that?

00:02:52 Desirée
Yes, this five years of teaching medical communication has been really inspiring for me. And my first job in an academical setting in hospital, that was quite an overwhelming experience for me because I thought I’ve survived internships, which is going from one place to another every six or eight weeks. And, then I did see people getting burnout, people getting ill, like the people working in the hospital. And it was really difficult to have the real proper conversations, which I found really important since I also was giving all this education. And in the first station I recall was like this 2 year old little girl who was had nearly drowned and her parents were really awaiting for have a proper conversation with her specialist. And that took me really a long time to give them that. And then we only had that at the evening, at 7:00 in the evening. And that type of conversation was, I perceive as rather harsh. So I had all these examples where I thought healthcare it’s not healthy for the people who work there and the care you want to give, you have to give it after the working hours. This is not healthy. What are we doing? So this is how I used to describe it at a time. And I really, I started to doubt myself. I thought I’m too sensitive, I’m not up to this system. I don’t know whether I could stay here to do what I really want to do because I really wanted to become a doctor from my five years of age.

00:04:24 Rosemary
Wow, wow. So it was a lifelong dream. So that must have been very disappointing to get inside the system and understand it, It was actually in very poor health.

00:04:36 Desirée
Yeah, to my opinion, yes, Yeah.

00:04:38 Rosemary
If we can Fast forward to today, I understand, Desiree, that today you work as an independent mediator and individual and relationship coach and as a director for the Netherlands Emotionally Focused Therapy Foundation or EFT. And it’s an approach in which attachment and emotions are key. I’m curious, with all of these professional hats to wear, how do you balance your professional life with your personal life and role as a mom?

00:05:05 Desirée
First of all, I used to work as this director, I stopped a year and a half ago, so it’s really recently that I’m not working as a director of the foundation any longer, but I’m still working for the foundations as a teacher or a trainer, I’d say. How to combine all these roles as a mom and a single mom as well. That’s an interesting challenge every day. And yet it doesn’t feel like they’re very different because they’re still very in line with one another. So I’m just being me and I’m doing different things really.

00:05:38 Rosemary
And I’m sure you’ve kept the lesson you learned in the medical system, top of mind to take care of yourself in the mix of work that you’ve created today.

00:05:49 Desirée
Yes, I feel like I have this mission how to create healthy systems with one another, and to really collaborate in a healthy way. And that’s for me the main thing. And if it’s a collaboration amongst parents, if it’s in a collaboration amongst medicals, specialists, or is that the collaboration within yourself, with your essence self, then that’s it. So for me, that’s the main theme and the way comes up. It’s differently and I’ll take it as it comes. And if you work for yourself, it’s really nice because then I’m flexible with my own time and if I want to be in time for certain event with my son, then I can arrange it. So I love that flexibility and that freedom.

00:06:31 Rosemary
Very sensible approach. Now you have a profile on the Talent Care website and I’d like to highlight something that you said, which was really …”seeing someone as a human being and being able to understand difficult behavior as fighting for connection with others or yourself because social isolation causes primal panic, offers so much space for our fellow humanity and self compassion.” I thought that was a really interesting insight and I loved that quote. How did the people you work with today respond to being related to you in this way?

00:07:09 Desirée
It’s funny. Yeah. I hear you reflect me this text back in English. Really. It’s it’s touches me really. That’s interesting.

00:07:20 Rosemary
Is it a different way for people to be treated when they work with someone Like You?

00:07:27 Desirée
What I get back is that, yeah, it made me, a similar effect as you say this now to me, people could like, I don’t know where is the right word. Sigh. And because I work with lots of people.. the website you recalled is a website with lots of doctors who come there who are a bit like me at that time, a bit disappointed in healthcare and they have doubts about themselves or about their future or what to do. And most of the time people have got more low self esteem, because of everything they went through to become a doctor. If I say all these things and people feel like they also feel see nothing in their ambition to be a human being in the healthcare system, and to be able to take care of themselves as well, I think I represent them.

00:08:22 Rosemary
I love that you use the word primal because it sounds like your approach is to go back to the primal needs of being seen and heard and understood.

00:08:31 Desirée
Yeah, definitely. That’s what I tell them all the time. I say if you cannot cure people, if you cannot change a situation, there’s a lot you can do. You can really truly see the people in where they are, and you can meet them where there are. And that’s a lot. And that’s if you say that a lot of people get really touched by it because it feels so basic and simple, yet it’s very difficult because you have the idea as a doctor that you need to fix it, or need to heal, or need to do all kinds of thing. And this is what you can do. We can all understand the sincerity if you’re really sincere and you’re really truly interested and you can say and ask everything because people do appreciate it when you are there.

00:09:16 Rosemary
Yes, yes. And that’s, I’m sure, very noticeable in medicine that there’s such time pressures.

00:09:23 Desirée
Exactly.

00:09:23 Rosemary
The short amounts of time that patients get to spend with doctors. The doctor’s not really.

0:09:30 Desirée
There exactly or at the computer or and that’s what I talk with all these people about. When your empathy, where you have more empathy, when you have less empathy, what are the factors around you that enhances or diminishes and how to deal with it? Yeah, that’s why I was so grateful to have to be for seven years, this director, because I saw this job. I saw… I went through a really bad miscarriage. I lost over two half liters of blood. So I nearly went in shock. And this is was when my son was nearly two years old. So as a doctor, I knew I was bleeding because I could feel it in my body, but nobody could hear me. So are you there for me, doctor? Because if you’re not there, I’m dying on that level. I sense that urge, that dependency, because I knew I was dependent on other people and I was not seen. It took 4 hours before they operated on me. And of course I did lose the baby 13 and a half weeks and actually in the period where the baby was all to be born, I was self-employed already, and I saw this advertisement for 8 hours a week as a director of the Emptionally Focused Therapy Netherlands. And I thought, ‘This is my job, it’s designed for me, this is for me.” This is really what it’s about. I could never have invented it myself, so I was really happy, but it was really weird. Instead of having a child, I had a job for 8 hours a week, which I loved. Also, from that experience of being in the hospital as a doctor with this experience, I could make sense of what we’re saying from the experience as well.

00:11:12 Rosemary
Now how scary to be knowing what’s going on medically, and dependent, and not being seen or heard.

00:11:20 Desirée”
I could not reach them because I said, you must have had a busy shift because I hear you’re still busy and I was losing a lot of blood and I even weighed my blood back at home. I asked to have scales and was like 500 milliliters and I knew it was a lot, because there’s a doctor people sent to discuss about it. It’s and it was like half a later. So I knew OK, that’s pretty much a lot and I was waiting and then I lost again a lot of blood. But then they said now you just go up, and I said, well, the it’s right for a doctor to do this curettage if I lose blood again. But it was all in the changing and everything, and I could feel life running out and everything. Yeah, that was one of the most impressive moments I think in my life. To be really dependent and to know without this help, I would not have survived. It’s not possible because, so I was in the hospital, but you sense it, because you know what’s going on in your body and.

00:12:19 Rosemary
Yeah. Oh, but how inspiring that the gift of the baby, yes, that was denied, but the gift of the job you loved showed up instead. I love that. Thank you. Now if I can reflect something else back to you from that profile, and this is really about your views on communication. I love this quote. You said …communication is not only about communication with yourself and others, but also about yourself as an instrument in communication. Insight into the functioning of your own neurology and its impact on your own. And I added automatic behavior and the emergence of common patterns is essential. It is a beautiful metaphor, being the instrument of our own communication and everything else that comes along with that. Would you like to say a little bit more about that?

00:13:13 Desirée
The way I said that, why I put it forward like that,,is to make people realize that there… it’s really about you in your life, and to be aware of yourself, to take care of yourself. And we all have good intentions or most of us do have, lots of the time, but the effect could be different, and we all have automatic behaviors. So it’s really not that it’s your fault or your intention, but that we get insight in it. It’s like  – I don’t have to wear it in English for that. I’m so sorry… It’s that you’re not guilty. It’s getting the Guild out of the people because people feel the pressure of doing so well and feeling so responsible and then looking outward all the time to really be responsible for their surroundings. But if you do not take care of yourself and you have all these automatic behaviors and you’re not aware of it, that’s so that that’s taking the guilt and the pressure off it.

00:14:13  Rosemary
Yeah, Beautifully put. I’m a little bit curious. We may have people listening from Holland once this episode is released. How would you say it in Dutch? The word guilt  – what you would struggle to find a word for?

00:14:26 Desirée
Onsgllden. So it’s not… it’s like making a word. De guilt ify.. or something?

00:14:33 Rosemary
Oh, I like that. I love that. Thank you for coining a new English word.

00:14:38 Desirée
Yeah, de-guilt-ify, because that’s really the effect of validation that people get. De-guilt-ifies, in a way that.. oh, it’s not me, I just didn’t have the inside what was going on while I was doing this. It’s not my fault. It’s just that because things happened, my coping, or in the way we’re wired with our neurophysiology, that this is the way it was. But hey, now I know it – I can change it.

00:15:08 Rosemary
Yes, very good. Now, big question. Obviously I met you through Compassionate Inquiry. What attracted you to the Compassionate Inquiry / approach / community…?

00:15:20 Desirée
What attracted me were different things, of course. Gabor really attracted in the way that he is a medical doctor, he’s a GP. His books, The Myth of Normal, I thought was brilliant, and so I thought if I really would like to learn from somebody who would that be, then I would think of him. So that was the reason. Then, I’m really inspired to make healthcare more healthy, right, for the people who work there, but also in all kinds of things to what we just talked about. That really is my passion to work with it. So I’m really interested in the international community of people collaborating, inspiring one another. And really I think it’s like a movement. It’s like a movement to be aware of oneself but also how to regurgitate trauma, in ourselves and to really create a more beautiful world with this.

00:16:15 Rosemary
You said regurgitate trauma. I’m fascinated by that. Can you say a little more?

00:16:21 Desirée
Because I really feel like… what I tend to say in my lessons with the doctors who have said, oh, I love that we recycle so many things nowadays, paper, glass, everything, but we should stop recycling trauma. That’s basically how I say it. Let’s just quit, because I said , for your neurology system is talking mine is talking and we both looking at our own neurology talking. We’re both not happy with it. So why don’t we just quit it? Sometimes I do it with this image…

00:16:49 Rosemary
Something should be recycled and some things should just be thrown in the trash and incinerated.

00:16:54 Desirée
Exactly, they should not recycle everything.

00:17:00 Rosemary
Very good. We had a guest on, another medical doctor in Ireland, Aisling Quiery, and she is on exactly the same mission. She took a break and when she went back to the medical community, it really struck her how unhealthy and how dysregulated all of the health care professionals were. So it’s very affirming hearing you share the same message. Thank you for that.

00:17:26 Desirée
It’s really interesting because the conversation I had just before, what was with Aisling, we just talked about this subject, this topic, which is interesting.

00:17:35 Rosemary
It needs to be spoken of and I think, you know, people who have medical backgrounds, as you both have, coming from you, it’s a lot more valid than coming from someone outside of the medical world. So yes, please do keep having those conversations.

00:17:50 Desirée
And this is what I notice because I really also guide teams of medical specialists, psychiatrists, gynecologists, pediatricians, like.. all kinds. And that’s what they really feel unrelated because I can speak their language and I understand their context. And if you understand the context and also the burden it could be, or how it could feel, that responsibility, as a medical professional. And if you have language for it, they’re really happy to be seen in that context.

00:18:25 Rosemary
That’s great. I’m going to put a divider between the early part of our conversation and where we’re going next, because I’d really like to focus primarily on healthy uncoupling. So I’d like us to explore in the time we have left  – the arc from the initial emergence of the torturous question. “Should I stay or should I go?’ through the uncoupling process to the point where we’re mourning our loss, initiating new lives and establishing healthy co parenting relationships with our ex partners and perhaps their new partners, which is all of it… All of it is very difficult. So I wonder if you’re open to framing up this conversation by sharing a little bit about your own recent uncoupling.

00:19:16 Desirée
Yeah, I had a similar question as you were saying as well and it’s now this year, it’s going to be 6 years that we split up. I split up with the father of my only child. He’s 11 years old and that’s been a really intense process. And as you say, if it’s about health and healthy collaboration and I knew that if I stayed, it would cost me my health, so it was not a matter of choice any longer in favour or should I stay? Or should I go? No, it’s a matter of necessity because I have to choose for myself and my own health in order to keep taking care of my son, and to have some kind of relationship again, and to build it up with my ex partner.

00:20:01 Rosemary
And how long was this process, what you just described is a very neat little package. Like how far in advance of your split up did the issues begin to emerge? And how did you work through it? Can you get us a little bit deeper into that? Because it wasn’t, oh, my health is not good. Time to break up and take care of myself. I’m sure that was a much longer process than.. what you offered suggests.

00:20:29 Desirée
Well, there comes the third reason why I did want to do the CI professional training as well, because there was a lot of… we had a lot of, well, traumatic events happening in the, in the time when our child was young. So it already started early after the birth of my son, which was already… we had IVF and we had all this stuff before he was there. I don’t even, I hardly know where to start. So I want to give you a nice little bundle of things. But there were lots of things that happened to us, and we really deal differently with the pain. We could not find one another in the pain, so we had different needs and there was less and less space to connect. And then you have to move on because there’s this little guy running around. So how to do that was a difficult challenge. And if you don’t speak the same language and how you deal with the pain. I think that was the main thing for us at that time, for me.

00:21:31 Rosemary
And, and thank you for sharing that because the whole process is incredibly messy. You talk about a neat little bundle. Nothing could be further from the truth of the experience of the dissolution of a relationship. There’s the confusion, there’s self doubt. There’s the dance, one partner tries… There are two relationship experts whom I referenced doing the research for this episode with you and they are Esther Perel and Terry Real. And they talk about the inequality of the efforts to restore the relationship, how it goes back and forth. And I think you talked about this as the polka. Can you share a little bit about that?

00:22:19 Desirée
Yes, yeah, that’s not my teaching. That’s from Sue Johnson. I have to mention her from the emotionally focused therapy. She described like 3 patterns to be recognized when people are in a negative interaction cycle. And so, a reactive cycle that like me and my partner, if we were in reactive behaviour, then there were three options, and there was first we look for the guilty one. So we were both fighting for connection and then there’s the polka. One is pushing and the other one is withdrawing. So it’s the pushing and withdrawing. So the pushing is the trigger for the other person to withdraw and the withdrawing is the trigger for the other person to be pushing further. So people are in a negative interaction cycle. And the third one is an empty dance floor because nobody’s dancing. And that could be the end stage if you are near a divorce or it’s because people are more avoidant, and it could be a couple of days and we slowly get together again. That could also be a pattern.

00:23:23 Rosemary
And Terry Real, he speaks of this saying: “…most often both partners don’t pull the plug at the same time. One partner wants out while the other, to whatever degree, is devastated.” So that explains the push and pull.

00:23:38 Desirée
But that’s not even when you want to pull out. I think most of the time the negative interaction cycle is, one of the reasons people want to have a divorce because the cycle builds up already a long time before. Research showed that it could be already like over seven years that people are in a negative cycle, seven years before they start to get help, which is a long time. So by that time, the cycle’s being normalized, it’s been like, how we look at one another through the lens of the cycle. You are the pusher Rosemary! God, you always want to have it your way. I’m not going to do this with you. I’m just going upstairs. So we start to look through that lens. So that’s also part… and of course, if if it’s out there that we’re not going to continue the relationship. It’s getting worse that whole cycle and the whole pattern and the people want to get rid of this cycle because it makes you so powerless and one of you cannot reach the other one. This lens is always in between. It’s always, “you don’t understand what I tried to say.”

00:24:43 Rosemary
And there’s also the uncertainty of never knowing how something is going to land, because from the inside, it seems like the partner that you thought you knew is showing up as a different person almost every day.

00:24:58 Desirée
And if I de-guilt-ify couples, it’s this, because you partner, if you only look through that reactive lens and that reactive pattern, you really look to… I perceive you differently. And people feel like if I’m perceived differently every day, I feel powerless. And there’s nothing I can do to show you my real self because you always put me back in that cycle, in that position in the cycle where I don’t want to be. And that’s been done back and forth, and people are trapped in it.

00:25:28  Rosemary
I guess a way to describe this that anyone who has not experienced it might relate to, is, it becomes a bit of a trigger fest. It’s like you’re being constantly triggered in ways that you didn’t even know you could be triggered. It’s so disaggregating, you never know when you’re standing on firm ground. And Terry Real does have a quote that I think fits here, he says. The question to ask is, am I getting enough in this relationship to make grieving the pain of what I’m not getting worth my while?

00:26:02  Desirée
Beautiful. I was wondering… the golden question in EFT is, are you there for me when I need you? I think that’s a really important question. Also, we talk about grief, or when you have.. what you experienced together in trauma. I think that’s difficult if we both need different things. But that’s really what most of the time is underneath, if you’re being critical or triggered is the question, are you there for me when I need you? But then how do I need you and how do I know my partner cannot be more upfront in what I really… in asking what I need instead of being critical, but being more aware that I do need my partner because it’s difficult. That’s what comes up.

00:26:44 Rosemary
Yeah, and I think that captures it very well. I wonder if we could take this back to the people you work with, both as a relationship coach, as a mediator. Could you share a story or two of how you’ve seen this dance play out so that people who haven’t been through it, the fortunate people who haven’t experienced it, can get a sense of what it’s like?

00:27:08 Desirée
A couple I recall is a couple that have two children and they have a daughter. He has a traumatized youth, and she also had some difficulties in the past. But if he’s triggered, he gets so dysregulated – we say out of the window – that he really is in the fight position. And they are divorcing. They went through a divorce, but at that time they came to me and when he’s out of the window, he needs to be, to have a normal conversation. Who gets, who needs to be in the window, he actually needed her to be in the window, but that she could not offer. So that’s why it was really, they got really desperate about it and he and so when I was there, they he, for example, what I did is, sometimes I touched his shoe because Andy was really agitated and he said when you touched me, my foot on my shoe, I could feel OK, now I can relax. So that was really to regulate his tension. He needed that little touch on his shoe and he could sink in a bit and he’d start to come down. So this couple had really severe issues in getting themselves regulated because he was triggered, not only because the current situation, obviously, he was traumatized, but he was also being fed up of his backpack, of all his traumas were in the way all the time. So he felt powerless of doing anything. But these people, when we started to talk about the interaction and the negative interaction cycle, they, they started to have more inside seeing it. And once it was really clear that they needed to stop because, it was not healthy for a long time already and really needs to stop. They went to another mediator and arranged everything, all the finances, everything like in a bit, because they, once it was clear, and once this pattern could be understood, then they could understand, oh, this is what’s happening. And we both don’t want this to happen every time, over and over again. This needs to stop.

00:29:20 Rosemary
That’s such a… that’s such a relief. You talk about people feeling able to exhale.

00:29:25 Desirée
Exactly. That’s the thing.

00:29:27 Rosemary
And release and relax at just having the pattern figured out…

00:29:33 Desirée
I have another couple who haven’t been talking to one another properly for over 30 years. They went through a fighting divorce, and they have now conversations with me because they really would like to have a normalized relationship in the sense that they could talk, have chit chat and be on the same birthday party of their children because they just became grandchildren. Became grandparents, I should say. And I feel are that new way to witness their cultivation because that’s being really tense. And it’s sad for them also to realize if they look back, how they were in fighting mode all the time and when they look back and hear the story of the other partner, or the ex partner, the other person, How do you… could really have been more compassionate about one another? They didn’t really have insights of where this other person was coming from at that time. And they did not have the space room to see that at that time. But that’s really regrettable for them. So I really think that’s why, to have these conversations once you’re in it at the time when you’re divorced and you really need to fight your way as Co parents, it’s so important to invest in it because it’s possible to really understand it better.

00:30:51 Rosemary
I’m wondering if you could… if we could jump from that to how you see trauma showing up in your clients relationship.

00:31:00 Desirée
As I mentioned before with the couple I just mentioned before, that was obvious that the trauma, once you’re in this negative interaction cycle as a couple, the behavior of person A is the trigger for the other person. And if we start acting out this to one another, that’s when the whole cycle starts. So when there’s not enough awareness that, hey, if I’m triggered, what does it say about me? Where do I get touched somehow? Where does it touch me? But somehow, sometimes people, that’s what we in therapy, in FT or in coaching, That’s what you could become more aware of. But sometimes when people have either current trauma , which in my situation was the case, but also of course in the past, sometimes it gets mixed up, and it’s so big and that’s where maybe that’s also, I don’t know whether that was Terry was saying people are in different phases. They want to deal with it. Some people want to deal with it earlier on and other people later on, or never. If the trauma can be mentioned or dealt with, it’s different. In general, that’s actually has 2 Johnson put it. The question India in relationship in important relationships is are you there with me when I need you? And subconsciously we measured a sense that somehow in three factors we can identify which is ARE and which is accessible. Can I reach you? If I need you, Could I.. if I ever call you, do you answer the phone? Can I reach you? Are you responsive? Are you responding to me or are you responding to an image you’re having of the way I should be behaving, or what I should be doing or delivering or whatever? And are you engaged? Do I exist in your head and do I exist in your heart? Because if you somehow we find the answer “no” One time it’s OK. But if we find it is persistently, no, in different areas, then some different ways of looking, perceiving the situation in perceiving the other person is going is emerging and think that’s really something it’s important to be aware of. And this is what you can train, and this is what we can have beautiful conversations about with one another, but also with professionals. And I think that’s what couples or professionals or teams want from me. They want me to  be ARE, to be accessible, responsive and engaged with my empathic presence, of course, but that’s what we can teach and be more aware of. But if we agree in during the setting that if you trigger, there’s also something being touched from earlier on, which is bigger than this relationship and has nothing to do with the other person. It’s already there, but that’s where you get activated. And then what’s your tendency to do and what do you need? Then we have a different conversation. So even if people not dealing with trauma, but if they deal with the impact of trauma in the interaction, in the here and now, if we start to understand if I’m touched, and if it’s somehow touched, like I’m not seeing and being seen. And then my tendency to do is, I try to make more noise and say, hey, Rosemary, why didn’t you answer my questions or be more critical with you or whatever. If I start to be aware that’s what I’m doing when I’m triggered, that’s where growth is as well.

00:34:32 Rosemary
I’m so grateful that this information is becoming more widespread. I think it’s beautiful the way you talked about bringing in the psychoeducation and letting people know that it’s not your fault. It’s.. it could be generational trauma. This could be something that you’ve inherited. This could be something that happened in your childhood that was pre-verbL. You have no conscious memory of it. You know these… our behavior and our ourselves, our personalities are shaped by all of these factors that we take no part in there just our environment as we grow up.

00:35:09 Desirée
Yeah, and every behavior makes sense in context. So we give them more attachment context. And I think that’s beautiful because then it does make sense for them because otherwise they get really overwhelmed by emotions, don’t have words, feel that they’re failing in the eyes of the other, or in the eyes of the therapist, don’t have words. And so we give them words and understanDING, and context that it’s logical that these things happen. And something came up from me. Can I just mention it? Because that was also when I was educated as a mediator. You get now you’re talking and we said kind of setting of rules and how we communicate to one another. No yelling, no screaming, no calling names, which is all good. But The thing is, and I think that’s the da-guilt-ifying part again. Once you’re out of your window, when you were threatened with loss of a loved one and of your dream and of a family, the limbic system is taking over. You’re fighting for connection. And then you can have all these rules set with communication skills. It just doesn’t work because the limbic system is bypassing it. And people get really more shameful that they cannot abide to these regulations, and people…. So this is a failure system. I cannot keep myself to the communication rules, in that way once I get emotional because that’s my system fighting for connection and to be seen. So I think that’s really also good for everybody to understand, not to judge people in these emotions, and to understand that people need your presence there, in order to regulate themselves because that’s what they cannot do amongst one another. They go out the window all the time, and you’re here as a safe place to get them more in the window and to get them more regulated because they cannot do that at that time.

00:37:13 Rosemary
I’m so happy you offer that to your clients because you’re not looking for empathy when you speak with your lawyer. You don’t expect it, but when you’re speaking with a mediator, being heard and being understood is more of an expectation. And I know for myself personally, when emotions rise up, when I’m on the edge of tears, my voice doesn’t work. So I need time. Don’t push me to say something because there’s something about my personal biology. I can’t cry and speak at the same time. I can choke out a few words, but it doesn’t really work and it doesn’t work for me to be forced to do that. That’s another guilt-ifying pressure.

00:37:58 Desirée
Exactly. And before you know it, the other one is reacting to this different voice with these words, which of course doesn’t work. It’s not the right words because they just are forced words. And then it’s all happening again.

00:38:11 Rosemary
Yeah, very good point. Now you set me up there for a beautiful question. I’m curious, as a relation coach and mediator, what do you wish for the clients you support?

00:38:25 Desirée
I wish them to be seen by me, both of them. And it’s what I’m checking at the end of the conversation, because I really want them to feel safe and seen in my presence, in this context, in this situation. And I see myself primarily there for their relationship or connection. That’s what I’m looking at. How is it with their connection and what is their intention? What do they want to get out of it? I’m there to facilitate, help them process that. But I wish them to be seen, that I, that I can see them. That’s in my influence, yeah.

00:39:04 Rosemary
Thank you. Thank you. Now working with a coach, or a mediator at this very difficult time is hard work for everyone involved. So if I can rephrase that question, a little bit and ask about roles, you know, what role or what work is each person involved in their relationship with you responsible for? You’re the coach or mediator. The couple are your clients. What’s their job?

00:39:38 Desirée
I see myself, I’m called the mediator, but I see myself as, I’m guiding the process and guarding the process. It’s their responsibility to shape their own new relationship, for example as parents or as colleagues. Or do you? Can you be more specific about the role?

00:39:57 Rosemary
You talked about our wish as a therapists. They will be seen. You will offer your empathy, like your role is to guide the process.

00:40:07 Desirée
I ask myself to be present and I asked them to be present. I ask them to be committed to what they want to commit to with one another and of course, to keep the conversation in the room, and not go another way out of the room, but to bring that back to the room if they don’t want… If they want to quit anytime, they’re free persons, but bring that back to the room. So we want to commit to the process and then I think that’s the main commitment I am asking. I really work in the present moment. And of course they want to, yeah, like how to work together as parents, and but sometimes that doesn’t work. Sometimes the pain is too big. And then people, then I say, well, you need to do some homework or what can we do here? How to do it? But sometimes it’s very difficult. If people are in the middle of the divorce and are grieving, then it’s really difficult, That’s the most difficult situation. And I think that’s in Sweden, they’re doing that. And I think that’s a great idea. But I never really I heard it and I checked it, but I should somehow check facts. But as you say, first you need to be divorced for one year from table and bad before you can really make regulations to it. All the other stuff you can do after one year because then, all the tough emotion and the first grief has gone down, because it’s really difficult when the emotions are so raw, to really make appointments. It’s hardly impossible. It’s really how do people do it? I don’t know how people do it. We didn’t do that either in my divorce or no, I was not married. But when we split up, we talked about all these things, I think after eight months or something, when it was more quiet because it was too much to talk about. And that’s what I hear from also assistants of GPS, for example, that I meet people after they went through divorce with mediators. They feel forced in the whole thing, to go along. And then they have health problems and issues because they… the process of. Grief and everything, it’s been so complicated with the process of taking care of all the issues that need to be taken care of.

00:42:22 Rosemary
Yep, one of the skills that Terry Real teaches is how to cherish your partner in the relationship and stand up for yourself at the same time. He says almost no one knows how to do this. I wonder if you agree.

00:42:37 Desirée
I can relate to it personally. That was my challenge too. I don’t know about all the other people, but I can relate to the challenge. That is a challenge, but it’s really nice that I could really feel – that’s genuine that if it doesn’t work out with all the pain and everything that happens that I really wanted my son to experience that love can never stop. Only the shape of it, and that’s been very that’s kept me going. And that’s where the love for me from the partner and the father of my son. I could always keep giving everything and the love to myself for my boundaries because I want you to know love will never stop.

00:43:17 Rosemary
Desiree, I can really see your passion right now as you’re describing this.

00:43:22 Desirée
Thank you. Yeah, that’s really kept me going. That kept me going through a divorce that kept me doing what I did because I thought this is really a one to give my son. If that, if anything, because I’m I want him to know then you can still be a family, but in a different way. We have different houses. But hey, we are family, because we’re going on holiday next week with the three of us. He will… the father will come along for a couple of days and we still celebrate some festivities as his family and my family together and its sometimes difficult, but then it’s not about my needs. It’s about something else. So I feel very, I feel compassionate about it. It feels like I can stay truthful to myself with this, because for me it’s if I stop loving, I stop being me. And that was no option. That’s no, it’s a non option. So if I cannot be loving, then I’m not being me. And that’s really related.

00:44:18  Rosemary
That is such a great lesson because I know a number of people who did not have anything close to the support you offer your clients, and they’ve wasted decades in bitterness and regret.

00:44:32 Desirée
Exactly. That’s such a pity. It’s a tragedy. And I think some of the first person after my split up who came to me was an old coachee. And she said I’m having a really rough time with my marriage and I really like you to step in. And I said, OK, I’ll just have first a conversation, because I don’t know whether I’m up to it already, because I just went through the same process. So I have to check if if I’m the right person, if I can deal with it. And that was OK. And I told her  – and her husband had another relationship, had an affair – and she said that, everybody I’m talking to about, these people are judging him. And to me, and that’s so difficult because that it’s not honoring the love I’m having because the problems we were having were even before that. It’s a symptom of having an affair. It’s not the cause of it all. And I said, yeah, you need somebody to value the love you’re having, both of you. And I think that’s really important. And she said that the love was still there. So this gives like a conflict within you. Do I have to go away, then I’m taking care of myself or should I stay? But then I’m not taking care of myself. But I think that’s what you said before with the what Terry was saying that it has to come together somehow and that’s and to keep that whole and to be non judgmental giving space. And I think professional proximity, I think then, you’re giving that space for both thoughts to be there and exist and all the experience to be there.

00:46:04 Rosemary
It’s interesting because it’s in some way linked to the grieving process because there’s so much going on as a relationship unwinds, there might be physical moves, finding a new place to live, managing a new financial situation, new economic realities, seeking out new childcare resources. It’s similar to what I remember after family deaths. There’s a lot of built-in distractions, if you will. Lots to keep us in our heads and out of our emotions. It’s actually very similar because just as in a death, the loss of a loved one, friends and family, they mean really well and they say all the wrong things. So it’s very parallel. So it’s almost as if, hang on to what feels good in the moment and just find some empathy. People are doing their best to stay connected. They have no idea what to say, and they’re just trying to reach out as best they can.

00:47:05 Desirée
Yeah. And talk with some people who might be in similar situation is really helpful and people who can really hear you, that you feel there’s no judgment about the situation, but you can share where you’re at. And I did take care of myself, obviously. And I did go on a holiday for a week on a yoga retreat and I did… So you find your moments, but it’s really in the moment. And I think that’s also something I like the expression, oh, if it doesn’t go the way it should or it ought to be, it goes, it ought to go the way it is, the way it goes, you understand? So I take it as it comes. And I think that’s what really helped me not to have expectations or, of how it should be or what should be done and what should be an neat household and all those things that you think that you want to do at your think of yourself as a good mom. Or… I had to make choices. I cannot, I could not do it all at the time it was impossible. So I was okay,. If I cannot do it all, then I’ll do what I can. And what is it today? And really be satisfied with it. I think that really helped me.

00:47:56 Rosemary
And…

00:47:57 Desirée
All those things that you think that you want to do at your think of yourself as a good mom or I had to make choices. I cannot, I could not do it all. At the time it was impossible. So I was OK. If I cannot do it all, then I’ll do what I can. And what is it today? And really be satisfied with it. I think that really helps me.

00:48:18 Rosemary
Yeah, yeah, I understand that completely. And I’m wondering how many people like me got a few surprises.

00:48:26  Desirée
I do prepare them that they are going to get trapped in the polka, or the dance, to be prepared that they are going to be disappointed. But then again, if they think about it, how to start the communication I’m not a guideline kind of person. So I take it from the process. And again, if, if that comes up, if you think about something you thought you want to do differently than the other parent, how are you guys going to talk about it? So I think it probably looks like that, that people really need to think about it. How are we going to deal with it? And that’s difficult and that’s easier after a while. So most of the time people think, OK, if we now we, we just start moving from here and if it’s going to get difficult, we’ll be coming back or we talk with somebody else or we talk with another third party in order to have the conversation really going the right way. I’m not an experienced divorce mediator in that way. So I do have coaching in couples and some mediators say, Are you sure you want a divorce because it’s hell. Are you prepared for hell? Are you sure you want to go through it? That’s also a way some people are really confronting like that.

00:49:39 Rosemary
Yeah, then a couple can be so enmeshed in their own pain, that they forget about all the other people who are touched by their uncoupling. And again, similar to a death, these other people, they care, but they just don’t know what to do. Very uncomfortable and…

00:49:57  Desirée
And it’s not theirs, it’s your, it’s your relationship. So they feel like an outsider. They’re missing of something. But they are related and don’t know how to relate to it. Is it…okay, if we meet your ex or is it not? And it’s all kind of difficult, as you say, and they are grieving as well? Some of them, of course, yeah.

00:50:16  Rosemary
Yeah. We’ve touched on a lot of different aspects of uncoupling. I’m wondering, is there anything that I haven’t asked you that you think is important to share?

00:50:30 Desirée
Yeah, with the new lives, I think it’s really difficult, I know from other people also from people around personal experience, if you have a new relationship, how to get – fit that in. It’s such a difficult thing. And people having like new.. starting, new families all getting together with the children, I find that really admirable if they do that, if that really works, because it’s a really difficult thing, bringing those family systems together, I think that’s really challenging. So I tested it and I thought, no, that’s not for me because it’s really challenging. How do I do that? I never realized it beforeI split up. That was such a difficult thing. You want to have a new relationship. How to bring that into your existing family? That was something I learned, because I really never thought of it, that it would be so difficult as well.

00:51:25 Rosemary
I’m, I’m curious in a way when… especially when you’ve had a child with another partner and you’re starting over, you’re starting over, but you’re also bringing a big piece of your past with you. It gets complicated in that way.

00:51:39 Desirée
Yeah, I think that’s what sometimes people over idolize – that they don’t realize and that I know from colleagues, from the EFT work more with families who are two different families coming together.

00:51:53 Rosemary
A blended family.

00:51:54 Desirée
Thank you for the word, a blended family, Lord, blended families that people really think was time. Well, now I found this person and I’m really happy with this partner and we bring the whole family together happily ever after. But then it really starts and that’s really difficult. So the challenge is really bigger than most people thought beforehand. And I think that’s a good thing for people to realize, it’s not to do something to do overnight. And if you don’t like something from the child of your new partner, how do you say that? How do you talk with one another? And you’re never going to be the first one. If you’re with your partner without children, you’re the first for one another. The child’s my first priority, though that’s different. How do you deal with that as partners, different. It’s also different than your attachment need.

00:52:46 Rosemary
It is very complicated. How do you merge or blend all of these people together?

00:52:51 Desirée
I think it’s really all experience of value, and I think that… but it’s good to realize it’s not just like that. It’s really good that people realize that. And even also with the blended family, and your new partner, just to go in a relationship counseling or therapy or have some sessions. How are we going to do it and talk about these things properly. I think that makes a difference and to make it to get it out of the taboo where that’s something you have to know and on the spot, and find out only with your partner. Because I think that there’s been a lot of shame and taboo relationship problems. And luckily there are people like Esther Perel talking about it and lots of people, and Sue Johnson, lots of courses. But again, I think it should be more mainstream to understand if you cannot fix it. If not, fix, but if you cannot talk about it properly amongst one another.

00:53:43 Rosemary
Yeah, or if it’s hurting your head too much to try and figure out on your own.

00:53:47 Desirée
Definitely.

00:53:49 Rosemary
Now our time is up for today and I’m offering the invitation, that question that we ask many of our guests, I’m wondering what you would like to share with everyone listening today, wherever they might be in their journey of coupling or uncoupling, that perhaps they may not be considering a pearl of wisdom, if you will. What do they need to hear?

00:54:12 Desirée
I really wish people not to feel isolated with these problems because I think the isolation when you’re going through it, that’s really not working and not helpful, in a situation which is already difficult. So I wish people, when they’re in this situation, to know that there are people out there who have been through it. People who want to help or want to listen. But you’re not alone, really.

00:54:39 Rosemary
Beautiful. Wonderful way to wrap up this conversation. Thank you so much, Desiree. It’s been wonderful having you on the show, and I really appreciate you spending your time with us today and sharing your wisdom on the very complex topic of uncoupling in healthy ways.

00:54:59 Desirée
Thank you so much, Rosemary. It’s been really a pleasure. And yeah, it’s really a pleasure to connect with people, to really feel in depth their wish for us to move forward as humanity in a way.

00:55:19 Rosemary
If you’ve been listening to our podcast, you may have heard guests connect their birth experiences with enduring, subconscious behavioral and emotional patterns such as how they react, the roles they take on, how they view the world, and what they believe. To minimize the trauma experiences of infants entering this world. Compassionate Inquiry offers the portal a 28 week trauma informed online training for perinatal health professionals such as obstetricians, midwives, nurses, and doulas who want to empower the people they serve to trust their innate ability to birth, bond with, and nurture their child. Use the link in the show notes to access the course details. Registration closes on February 23rd. 

The Gifts of Trauma is a weekly podcast that features personal stories of trauma, healing, transformation, and the gifts revealed on the path to authenticity. Listen on Apple, Spotify, all podcast platforms, rate, review and share it with your clients, colleagues and family. Subscribe and you won’t miss an episode. 

Please note this podcast is for informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for personal therapy or a DIY formula for self therapy.