00:00:02 Pam

In true Compassionate Inquiry form, trauma happens when we’re not seen, when we’re not witnessed. When you ask someone or when you talk to someone about their loved one, it gets heartbreaking for them, but the heartbreak’s there. The heartbreak’s always there, right? And when we ask them about, you know, tell me about your mom, tell me about your sister, it’s giving space for this heartbreak to have a voice to be witnessed, to be held. It’s my favorite thing, is to talk… besides my kids, of course, is to talk about my parents. I want people to ask me questions. I want to be able to talk about them-now. And when you’re in that really raw space of just like in when we’re speaking time wise of someone just passing, presence is what we need. That’s what we’ve always needed, is someone there who’s safe, non judgmental, compassionate and open.

00:01:06 Rosemary

This is the Gifts of Trauma Podcast. Stories of transformation and healing through Compassionate Inquiry. 

Welcome to another episode of the Gifts of Trauma podcast by Compassionate Inquiry. Today we are beginning a new series that I think is really going to land solidly with so many of our listeners. We’re going to be exploring a human experience that we all face, at one point or another, through our lives, and that is death, loss and grief. So in this first episode of the series, it’s titled What We Don’t Know About Grief. Because grief has become a topic that we don’t talk about, that we are given no instruction how to handle. And as a result, it makes a lot of us deeply uncomfortable and can lead to holding prolonged grief in our bodies. Joining me to explore this topic are Pam Sommer and Manisha Billamoria. Pam and Manisha, welcome. Pam, you’ve been with us before. It’s great to have you back. Manisha, this is your first time, so welcome.

00:02:28 Pam

Thank you so much, Rosemary.

00:02:30 Manisha

Thank you, Rosemary. It’s lovely to be here.

00:02:32 Rosemary

It’s great to have you. Now, I am going to share excerpts from your bios in a moment. What I will share with our audience is that Pam is a Compassionate Inquiry Practitioner and facilitator. She actually leads training that clinicians and other healing professionals come to, to learn how to use the Compassionate Inquiry approach themselves. And Manisha is also a Compassionate Inquiry Practitioner and I will introduce you shortly. Your full bios are in the show notes, but as we do in Compassionate Inquiry, before we begin this conversation, I’d like to share my intention and invite each of you to share yours. Pam, would you like to start?

00:03:20 Pam

Oh, gosh, Rosemary I’m just so grateful to be here with you all. My intention is to give voice, give space and give some energy to the topic of grief. All the ways it shows up, all the ways each human on the planet has experienced it, as you said in the beginning. And yeah, just to be here and give it some space and love.

00:03:44 Rosemary

Thank you, Pam. That was beautifully said. Manisha, do you have an intention for this conversation today?

00:03:51 Manisha

My intention for being here is to share my experience with grief. And for the longest time I didn’t even know it was grief. And as I am still in progress, a work in progress in unfolding that, what I feel and see is what I want to share. Because the people that I work with here, I see them have the similar pattern and this is just for them to know that there is a way that you can actually address it without it being too difficult or awkward, but just to allow the wisdom of the body to guide, and to share that.

00:04:26 Rosemary

A lovely intention, beautifully languaged. Thank you, Manisha. My intention really is to facilitate a conversation through which listeners can gain various things, perhaps validation for their experiences, perhaps language for what they’re feeling… that always can be helpful. And overall, I would love for listeners to walk away with self-permission, to grieve in their own way and also perhaps, some tools to support others through their grief. Because that’s another thing we are not taught, and many of us don’t do well is… our hearts go out to friends who’ve lost loved ones and we say the clumsiest things because we don’t really know. So we will be touching on that. 

Now, I’d like to just touch on a few points from your bios so that listeners have a sense of who I’m speaking with. Pam, you are a dedicated wellness practitioner, a Compassionate Inquiry Practitioner and facilitator. You’re an EFT practitioner and a registered massage therapist. What really intrigues me is that you’ve also trained to be a death dula and your approach is rooted in empathy, understanding and a genuine desire to support others on their path to well being. Those are just a few snippets about what you’ve studied, what you’ve achieved. Pam, would you like to weigh in and tell us a little bit about who you are? Who is the woman who was moved to take all that training?

00:06:03 Pam

Gosh, thanks. Thanks again, Rosemary. I’m pulled to go right towards the Death Doula training, even though it’s not something I’m actively practicing right now. Being alongside both my parents as they passed, witnessing the Palliative Nurses who are complete earth angels and how they guided and held and witnessed without judgment. It was such a beautiful experience to be able to witness. Yeah. And for the rest of it, it is a combination of just having a passion going in that direction, life experiences and that’s about it.

00:06:45 Rosemary

Great, thank you. It’s great to have you here. And you just… what you said just inspired me. It would be very interesting to hear the perspectives of a palliative care nurse.

00:06:56 Pam

Oh gosh, yeah. Amazing.

00:06:59 Rosemary

I would imagine that there might be many memoirs and books written from their experience, and I wish they would because it would be so helpful. Perhaps they’re out there. That’s something I have not researched, so thank you for bringing that up. I’ve heard that same sentiment expressed by many people who’ve had a loved one in palliative care. Let’s take that in for a moment. 

Manisha, you are a dedicated mental health counselor. Your therapeutic foundation includes comprehensive training in cognitive, somatic and biological trauma and functional medicine. You’re a certified Compassionate Inquiry Practitioner and you’re constantly studying and expanding your expertise, adding new therapeutic credentials. Now your unique approach to mental health care is quite similar to Pam’s. You blend empathy, authenticity and a genuine caring for your clients well being. And through Umbartha, the healing organization you founded in 2016. Gosh, 10 years ago, you and your team of qualified therapists and counselors supports clients through emotional challenges, helping them build mental and emotional resilience and self empowerment so that they can access their own innate inner strength, peace and contentment. So again, that’s more,Manisha, about what you’ve trained in and what you’ve accomplished. Tell us a little bit about who you are. Who’s the woman behind these accomplishments?

00:08:28 Manisha

I didn’t start my career as a counselor. I in fact was a fashion designer. But when I came to Sri Lanka, I came here 30 years back and I was here when there was a war going on, a civil 30-year-old war going on. And with my husband’s job, we kept moving from one non English speaking area to another. So life for me was very difficult. And there came a point when I was just finding it so hard to show up with the expectations, and I was crashing. And that’s when I went into studying. I went into studying Christian counseling because that was one of my ‘go tos’ and it was when I started that I went there because I needed help and I didn’t know where to go. So with all due respect and little Sri Lanka, confidentiality is not something that used to be, it’s changing now, was maintained. So I wanted to go and study to figure out what was happening to me. So that’s where my journey started. And since then, I have just been very intrigued by trauma. And I kept studying. I’ve been actually studying for the last 15 years. I realized, and I landed on this program called The Biology of Trauma with Dr. Aimie Apigan, where it helped me understand what was happening to my body, because at that stage of my life, I was having allergies, I was having rashes, I was having health issues. And the doctors couldn’t tell me what was wrong. So that’s where I started my journey. I enrolled in a class with her, and while doing that, then a year and a half later, I was able to get onto the Compassionate Inquiry platform as well. And the combination of those two have completely changed my life. And since 2023 is when I chose to stay in Sri Lanka because I want to share what I have, what I have been through and how this program and how healing happened for me. So that’s where my Umbatha started. Umbartha is a Marathi word which means thresholds. So it was me crossing my own threshold and helping others cross their threshold. So that is how Umbatha actually started.

00:10:31 Rosemary

Wonderful. And it’s interesting that moving around from country to country with your husband ended up taking you to the place where you really put down your roots. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Now, Pam talked a little bit about her training as a death doula. I understand you’ve had a very different introduction to death, so could you tell us a little bit about how you were introduced to death, which I believe started very young.

00:10:57 Pam

Yeah. I’m the youngest grandchild on both sides of my family. It’s been having my older grandparents witnessing that. And then in my first year, my first month of the Compassionate Inquiry training, my father passed away. And witnessing that transition, having the Compassionate Inquiry approach there, even though it was just the first few modules for me, witnessing how my siblings and my mom, how we all navigated around that, my dad was told he had days left, and I was in his bedroom with him with my mom and the palliative nurse, and I started to well up, I started to cry, and my body took me out of the room. I left the room. When I look back now, I see why I did it. Then it was just almost not instinct, but I’m going to see training with no disrespect to my parents, because they were just the most incredible people. And I walked out and then my mom followed me out and she lifted her glasses and she wiped her tears and she said, “Okay, settle down. That’s not gonna help anyone.” And it was said. It sounds harsh, but it was said with such love and such, like, her training or her knowing that’s what she had to do to make it through. And it hit me right in that moment, just with a few… a couple of months of CI training, this realization of, holy shit, this is the trauma. This is one of the traumas. My training, and seeing my mom, was to stifle, because that’s how you get through. And then the message of “Wipe those tears, that’s not gonna help anyone.” And then witnessing my mom in the same bedroom two and a half, three years later, move through her own palliation, which to me was one of the most beautiful experiences of my life, to sit there with her. I sat with her through the night. I sang to her, even though I can’t really carry a note, that doesn’t matter. I sat with her. I saw her speaking to my father. I asked her… she was looking up. Minutes before she passed, she was looking up. And I said, “Mom, what are you looking at?” And she wasn’t very articulate at that point. She goes, “James.” So I’m looking up quickly to see, like, what is. What am I not seeing? And my dad was sometimes an impatient man. And she said, “James.” And I said, “Is he waiting for you patiently or impatiently?” And she said, “Patiently.” Because mom, he was patient with Mom. And to be able to witness, that was the most beautiful thing. She struggled a bit right near the end, and I put dad’s wedding ring on her and she passed. It was just the most beautiful experience. So that is my experience with death recently. Yeah.

00:14:11 Rosemary

Let’s just take a breath. Wow, Pam.

00:14:14 Pam

Yeah.

00:14:16 Rosemary

I have also experienced that…what you described, it was so interesting that you used the words. “My body took me out of the room.” I was in a position where I had to make a decision whether to allow a loved one to suffer or let them go. And my brain was saying it’s the right thing to do, while my heart was breaking.

00:14:38 Pam

Of course, of course.

00:14:40 Rosemary

And trying to be, through those conflicting emotions, is perhaps the hardest thing that any human can have to do. So thank you for sharing that story so beautifully.

00:14:54 Pam

I was just going to say, Rosemary, like in Compassionate Inquiry, we talk about the… When we’re in our adult brain, we have the capacity to hold these two opposing beliefs or these two opposing thoughts. And you sharing that, your brain making that decision and your heart breaking at the same time. You can hold those two. Yeah.

00:15:12 Rosemary

It just opened up because the medical professionals were awaiting a decision. I had to make a call. Yeah. And when I cry, I can’t speak. My voice goes. So it was like, okay. Part of me was like, hold it together. And the other part of me was like, how can I do this? So thank you, Pam. I appreciate you bringing that in, because it’s something many people face. And this is exactly what this series is all about. Sharing stories that let people know they’re not alone, that it feels like an impossible decision, because it is.

00:15:51 Pam

It is a completely impossible decision.

00:15:53 Rosemary

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

00:15:55 Pam

Thanks, Rosemary.

00:15:57 Rosemary

Manisha, I understand from something you said before we started recording today that you had quite a different introduction to death. It was commonplace in your childhood. Can you tell us about that?

00:16:09 Manisha

Yeah. My mother was a doctor and my dad was a priest. And we had this huge house, which was a theological college that I grew up in. And whenever there were family members who were ill, they would come and stay with us because mom would look after them. And for them, it was safety. I had my grandparents from my dad’s side and my grandmother from my mom’s side who lived with us all my life, and as long as they were around. So for me, death was something that was a very natural thing from a very young age. I have memories of my grandparents passing. My grandmother passed while I was an adult, and I also had family members who passed. So for me, it was something that was accepted. But as I went, it’s not that it didn’t hurt. It still does hurt, but it was accepting on a very different level. And when I look back, I realize my children don’t have that experience at all. And their reaction to death is very different to mine. So for me, when my sister died when I was 13, I actually don’t have memories, a lot of memories around that because I just feel that it was a shutdown by then, and I don’t know… it is very difficult because it’s having that cognitive understanding that this is normal in life and also then struggling with the loss, that has been quite a journey of struggling with the two. But by and large, to be able to hold space, that it does happen and to be ready for it, at least on a cognitive level, as of now.

00:17:41 Rosemary

It’s interesting that we’ve all shared shades of the same color in our experience. And, Manisha, I understand that you are just now coming to terms with the loss of your sister in very real ways. Can you tell us a little bit about the event that you’re planning to honor her memory and also just talk about the journey that it’s taken you to get from where you were when she died. You were 13, is that right?

00:18:12 Manisha

Yeah

00:18:13 Rosemary

To today…

00:18:13 Manisha

Let me start with… My journey is something now I can say without absolutely breaking down and crying. As I mentioned, I was studying in the Biology of Trauma, where it is understanding what happens to you on a cellular level when you go through trauma. And then I was doing my Compassionate Inquiry my first year and I was to go in for a dyad. And a while before that, my daughter had mentioned that “Mama is scared.” And that was that disturbance in me. So I went into my dyad and I said, okay, it’s a very mild disturbance. Let me start working with it. So we started with it, and in true Compassionate Inquiry style, the questioning with compassion took me back 38 years. And I was just blown [away]. It was a very vivid memory of my sister having a conversation with me the night before she died. And then it was her asking me to be there for my parents, to look after my younger sister and to be brave. I had completely forgotten about it. And that for me was the opening of something that I didn’t even know existed. And then with the different dyads, I was working on it. And it was just so beautiful how layer by layer there was more depth to me. And I say it was beautiful, because this pain and the tears weren’t coming from a place of being hurt. It was coming from a place of healing and discovering myself. And to realize that I had so much depth within me and I didn’t even know that. And what I realized then was, is my body just had to feel safe to start talking. And looking back, it was during those dyads and triads and even on the biology of trauma, the little groups, is where I would feel safe to just be me. And that’s when I realized that in our part of the world where I was working with my clients, safety wasn’t there in the body. Feeling safe in the body wasn’t available because in 2023, Sri Lanka was going through a financial crisis. So working with people who were coming with surface level struggles, was actually grief at the core. Now, with my experience, I could see it, but I couldn’t tell them. And what I then started having a realization ,and a very strong calling towards is, to create that safe space. To create that safe space, because we don’t need to carry grief and what it takes away from you. So my intention since then has been to learn different modalities, to be able to create safe space. So we bring in drumming, we bring in art, we bring in dancing, movement, yoga, mindfulness. All this to just create that safety for the body so the body will do the healing. Now, with that in mind, I’ve been working for two years on creating this retreat. So my 2026 is a year of retreats. And what I mean by that is also creating group circles to create safety for the body to let go of what it doesn’t need to carry on anymore, where it has become so heavy for people. And my experience has been of finding a new depth in me. And I’m still a work in progress. And if I may share this, Rosemary. I was introduced to breathwork, something I was very skeptical about. And I trusted Rosemary, and she suggested somebody, Christina, to go to for breathwork by listening to that music on my third session. And I’m just going to not go into the story. The third session was so profound. It brought in… within me so much discomfort, which I couldn’t handle. And I was like, why would I put my clients through this? Because I couldn’t handle it with all the tools I had. And then on the third day, I woke up crying. I had this dream, and I just woke up sobbing and crying. And in those tears, there was this felt sense of crying for my sister, for the loss of my sister., for the first time. And without any vocabulary, it was understanding that I’ve always cried for her, but because somebody else was crying, it came from a place of stuckness, of hurt. But this crying and this feeling was of release and acknowledging, and that was just so different and so profound. And also forgiveness for my mom. After my mom’s death, there were shreds of anger that were coming up. And she was a lovely person, but as a mom, I was angry with her for certain things. And as my religion says, and forgive, forgive. And I was struggling with it. But in this moment, there was that felt sense of forgiveness, and it just completely snapped like that. No vocabulary needed, just for the body to do what needs to be done. And that was so profound for me, and that has, for me, made it so important to be able to create a safe space for the body to do the work. We don’t have to talk about it. Yeah.

00:23:17 Rosemary

Thank you. That really fits with what Pam said about her body taking her out of the room. Yes. So this retreat that you’re planning this year is helping people work through their grief. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

00:23:31 Manisha

As much as grief is something that everybody wants to push away and not address;  did that for the longest time. It’s about creating a safe space. A safe space where you just come and we have Sat Dharam, who is going to be there to hear that guidance, to hear the. To give the body the exercise it needs, the breathing and to hold space so that the body will do it, knowing that everyone’s grief is at a different level. So it’s just peeling as much as you can, so it’s not going deep down. It is a safe space. And the reason why it’s a safe space is because Compassionate Inquiry was for me, that safe space, the way it is designed, is to hold and I want to be able to do that for people who are willing to look inward.

00:24:18 Rosemary

Wonderful. Thank you. That sounds amazing. And for our listeners who don’t know, Sat Dharam Kaur is a naturopathic doctor. She partnered with Dr. Gabor Mate to create the Compassionate Inquiry approach. And it’s the first time that she’s been to Sri Lanka. I understand. Yeah. Wow. I can’t wait to hear how it goes. 

00:24:39 Rosemary

If you’re listening right now and wishing that this platform could be available for you to share with the world the unexpected ways that the compassionate inquiry approach is helping you bring more connection, healing and authenticity into your clients lives, we’ve got a really exciting offer for you. Stay with us, we’ll be right back. 

Your journey with Compassionate Inquiry matters. Your work in the world matters. If you have a story to share about bringing Compassionate Inquiry into the world, we’d like to amplify your voice. Spotlight episodes are full length Gifts of Trauma podcast interviews offered exclusively to CI community members. You’ll not only share your story with 55,000 healing professionals across all platforms, you’ll receive a pre-interview strategy session plus three promotional video clips. We’re offering only 10 Spotlight episodes per year and production realities require a financial contribution. Follow the links in the show notes to access full details and express your interest. 

00:25:40:  This seems like a good time to shift to talking about how grief shows up in the body. You touched on it, Manisha. And also I want to just underscore something you said about the grief work that you did in your dyads and triads in Compassionate Inquiry in the year long training ,and also in your biology of trauma training, in a country where confidentiality in a counselor’s office is not guaranteed. I just want to applaud you for going online, getting the training and finding the safety in a series of zoom rooms with relative strangers. 

So, Pam, as someone who facilitates the year long training that Manisha just described, do you see grief coming up often with the participants you lead?

00:26:44 Pam

Oh, gosh, yeah. So much. And I know when you and I were in the training together, facilitating a training, there was a big part of that group, was an indigenous group here from Canada. And the incredible amount of grief that they shared and held and honored and allowed us to witness , was one of the most profound things I’ve ever experienced.

00:27:09 Rosemary

Yeah. And I’m just wondering if someone is much more in their cognitive brain than in their somatic sensing in their body. What types of things might show up to give people a clue that grief is showing up in physical ways?

00:27:28 Pam

Oh, God. That’s the best question you could ask for me right now because I’m experiencing some lower back issues, and I know I can see Manisha’s nodding her head. I know it is grief, and not just the grief of my parents that have passed. My kids are moving on, moving out of the home. And that is a level of grief that I didn’t even know existed. And really trying to honor it and having these old coping mechanisms creep in, of muscling through and. And then my body’s going, No! So really trying to honor that and seeing it also in, as you asked, in the participants of the course, people can get really cognitive, try to think their way out of these grief situations or even having stories of it’s been six months or it’s been five years or it’s been whatever the amount of time is for them. And then the judgments coming in, the shoulds coming in, of I should be in a different place. I should be healed by now. And then you just get walloped with a physical, like a, you know, lower back issue or achy joints, digestive issues, breathing issues. My mom, my sister and I ended up with pneumonia three days after my dad died. And I know it was probably a bit of a bug going around, but I generally don’t get hit with that. And grief is held in the lungs. So witnessing that now from a different lens, to me is beautiful. To be able to see that and not just chalk it up as, “Oh, I hurt my back, or, oh, I just got a bad cold.” To be able to hold that and witness it is. It’s a gift for me. 

00:29:16 Rosemary

Yeah. Thank you. Wow. How’s your back after having said that Pam?

00:29:22 Pam

I’m seeing my chiropractor again today. It’s a little. I’m a little fidgety here, but I know it will pass through. You know what? Just really quickly on that topic, my back issues started when my dad got sick, so it was like this anticipatory grief. And we just passed the anniversary of my mom. We’re coming up on the anniversary of my dad. It all tracks.

00:29:42 Rosemary

It’s very present for you right now.

00:29:44 Pam

Yeah, it is.

00:29:45 Rosemary

Thank you for being here, given that situation.

00:29:49 Pam

Yeah, it’s my honor.

00:29:50 Rosemary

Manisha, having been trained in the biology of trauma, how have you seen grief show up physically in people’s bodies or your own or both?

00:30:02 Manisha

Thank you for that question. And this is what I’ve been bringing in very regularly with my clients, is allowing the vagus nerve with what Dr. Gabor says, when there’s tension, give it attention. So when my clients are talking, I’m about a story which is so diluted. Like, for example, very often I hear my adult clients who are in their 50s, were talking about the [19]83 riots, and they will say, “We were going to school and we had to go to school and there were people burning houses and there were dead bodies and we had to keep going to school.” And it’s just nullified there. And as I now talk to them, I am inviting them in their body to just notice what’s happening. And for many of them, it’s really very difficult. But when we start addressing the body, what is, where are you holding it in your body? Where I’m helping them understand the three states of the nervous system, and using that to just help them heal has been very powerful. That somatic work is what I do very intentionally with everyone, because many of us, including me, we don’t have a memory of it. And we know that when we are going through trauma, our memory is so fragmented. So to help them with just allowing the wisdom of the body to guide, has been extremely powerful and helpful for my own healing and as I work with my clients. But yes, health issues are rising right now as well because of the grief that is also rising. Multiple reasons.

00:31:29 Rosemary

I wonder if we should switch from physical symptoms to mental health issues connected with grief. Pam, if you think back, perhaps your own story, and the many people you’ve worked with, both as a Compassionate Inquiry facilitator and practitioner, how does grief show up in our emotions, which, of course, emotions live in the body. I may be asking you to separate two things out that are intricately interwoven. But again, I’m thinking for listeners… what might be going through their minds? What might they be feeling emotionally in the wake of grief or even, as you said, anticipatory grief, which we’ll touch on next, I think.

00:32:13 Pam

Yeah, that’s a fabulous question, Rosemary. And it is really hard to not have them intertwined. But if we do just separate them for a moment here, you can experience anything from rage , like just this rage that comes out of quote, unquote, nowhere, right? Because you burnt your toast and all of a sudden it’s just this explosion of anger or you’re crying watching a commercial, or you are having this brain fog, right? You can’t get your thoughts, can’t get straight again. I’ll reflect back on a personal story. Driving home after my dad passed, I was by myself in the car and I turned on the radio and I was singing and, like, laughing like it was this, like this joyful moment. And then I had this. I’m like, “Oh, my God, what’s wrong with me? I shouldn’t be happy, I should be sad.” So even in those moments where you have joy, then judgment comes in, and you ‘should’ on yourself. But now, reflecting back like that was such an immense amount of relief that I experienced knowing that he had suffered for so long. So separating them, I think is impossible. But for this, this comment here, I think just allowing yourself the space to experience what you’re experiencing. Like we say in Compassionate Inquiry, “All parts of you are welcome here.” So in grief, all parts of you are welcome here. That angry part, the happy part, because there are stories about not… I shouldn’t be happy. Yeah.

00:33:52 Rosemary

Thank you. Thank you. I will share something because you’ve just …anger. My mom passed over 20 years ago, and I think, unfortunately, my dad’s second wife, he married very quickly after her death. There really wasn’t time to grieve, and I didn’t express it to her. I knew enough not to do that. But internally, I experienced a lot of anger over silly things. I’ll share one example. She took one of my mom’s favorite dresses and turned it into a teddy bear. Actually, she took two of my mom’s favorite dresses, turned them into teddy bears. One for me, one for my daughter. And that is a lovely thought, but I got so angry, it’s, “Who are you to cut up my mom’s clothes? Those were her favorite dresses.” And it’s totally irrational. And I understood it was irrational. But where I was going back then, that was 2004, I was releasing some of my grief through anger, through being angry, because I did not understand at that point that it was stored in my body. So unfortunately, my poor stepmother was raged at a lot in silence, which I’m sure she felt. And I was at the time, a single mom. I was an entrepreneur. I was running a business. I was trying to take care of my dad. I was in, like, this busy space where there wasn’t any downtime to process. Let’s make sure dad gets fed. Because left to his own devices, he bought a tetra pack of custard for dinner one night and thought that was nutritious, so he needed a bit of looking after. So it’s interesting. The situation we’re in, what we’re feeling, it can show up in very different ways. I love what you said about space.

00:35:38 Pam

Yeah. Thank you so much, Rosemary. And it’s amazing how when you have grief, then these other stories and beliefs compound the intensity of the grief story.

00:35:51 Rosemary

Yeah. Manisha, how have you experienced and witnessed grief showing up in people’s emotions? We’ve talked about anger. Maybe there’s a bigger spectrum to explore.

00:36:05 Manisha

Yes. You’re right. It’s the anger, the irritation, frustration, where you’ve become very rigid. Grief does that to you. But as I am healing and I look back at my own story, what I realize is that grief caused me to create my subpersonalities, that people pleasing personality, that fixer personality, that I’ve got to be there for everyone. And I think that is what developed for me. And today, as I sit with it and I realize that these were my personalities, mind you, I was very proud of them because it got me to where I had to get to in life. Though I was very proud of being a multitasker. I was very proud of being a strong person. But when I realized where they came from and I let go of those personalities, there’s a different connection to that, to those parts of me who still want to be there for others, who still want to help others, who still want to love and care and fix, but not from a place of a reaction, but from a place of wishing and wanting to do it for myself, not because of wanting to fit in. So that attachment pattern kind of thing has also been dislodged for me since I’ve been intentionally working on my own grief.

00:37:18 Rosemary

Very interesting that you brought up attachment patterns because I want to shift into talking about rituals and ceremonies which can really help us work through grief. But we’ve been distanced from them. There used to be rituals and ceremonies that were constant. They were part of our communities, they were part of our lives. But since so many of us have moved from one country to another, since the extended family is not present for all, they tend to have fallen away. Also, we have, to a certain degree, institutionalized death. And what I mean by that is it used to be that whoever died, their body would be, as you have shared, Manisha, washed and cared for by relatives and family. And now they’re sent to a funeral home. They’re put in a box, sometimes we never see their face again. So for me, these rituals were very foreign. And my attachment pattern, which was avoidant, really showed up. When I lost my mom and my dad and other people who were significant in my life, I couldn’t understand why I was being invited by my stepmom to a cremation. Why would I want to go and hang out with her family while my dad’s remains were being cremated? I didn’t understand that at all. She offered me a necklace with ashes. It’s like, why would I want that? When another beloved family member died, I was invited to go and sit with her remains before she went to the funeral home. And I just. I had no idea what the purpose was of that because I’d never been exposed to it. It wasn’t part of my life growing up. So I wonder if you’d like to speak a little bit to the value of traditions. I’m sure you’ve been exposed to lots of traditions and rituals. How can those be helpful if people like me are saying, like, why am I being invited to this thing? What is the purpose of this thing? I don’t understand. Would you like to speak to traditions, Manisha?

00:39:25 Manisha

Sure. So in India, things are done very differently around the funeral. And in Sri Lanka it is similar, but slightly different. Similar in many ways, yes, slightly different. So growing up, crying around the dead body was a very common thing. Going and kissing the dead body is a very common thing. And I grew up watching that. And as I shared with you, it is also washing the dead body, giving them that last bath, that was considered to be a good thing to be able to show your love and care for the person. And I’ve done that as a little girl. I remember doing that. So that’s very normal for me. And in India, in the olden days, in fact, there were, as I was sharing this earlier, there were ladies who were called the Dudalis, who used to be invited to a funeral house to just cry all night long. And looking back, I think it was to allow that trappedness of death, the pain, to allow it to release through your tears, because it helps. So that used to be done. Now it’s… individuals are allowed to cry in our part of the world. And in Sri Lanka it is slightly different right now where the body is sent into a parlor where it’s looked after. And you can go to the parlor, not to the house. Some of them still choose homes. But to be able to go there and celebrate the life as well and to be in community. But being in community for me has been a little difficult over here is because you really don’t know what to say. And in Sri Lanka, one thing I realized, and this is because most of my adult life has been here, is when there is a death, everyone makes it a point to go and be there with the family. And I think that’s really very beautiful. But what also happens is the advice that is given, of don’t cry, be brave, be strong. You have to… And everyone saya that with the best of intention because one wants to help and you don’t know how to. And you think you’re giving them advice that is going to help. But it’s just counteracting.

00:41:17 Rosemary

Yeah. Thank you. And you’ve taken me right to actually two separate questions. One is why don’t we deal with grief? Well, and how can we deal with it better? My ex husband, my daughter’s dad passed away quite recently. And it was a combination of emotions. There was surprise and disgust. And she couldn’t believe some of the things people said to her which she knew were intended kindly, but they landed so poorly with her. Maybe we could start with why we don’t deal with grief. Is it this whole process of distancing it, handing it off to medical professionals, being unfamiliar, lacking the rituals? I’d just love to get your thoughts on this. Why is it so hard for so many of us to deal with grief?

00:42:08 Pam

I’ll comment on that, Rosemary. I think that people find it so hard to deal with grief, because we have looked at it as such an ending. It’s finished, complete. There’s nothing after this. And whatever your belief, whatever your religion or you know, what it is, that ending is just so scary.

00:42:30 Rosemary

This might be a good time to bring in the circumstances around a death. We’ve been talking about parents, deaths of parents, deaths of grandparents. Those are expected. We expect the people who are older than us to pass first, but when it’s someone younger. This happened to me late last year. My 29 year old niece was murdered by her ex partner. She was a single mom of four kids under six. And nobody saw it coming. My brother and sister in law certainly didn’t see it coming. They knew this guy, they suspected this guy was unstable, but he was also apparently out of the picture. But just seeing them struggle with this shock and unexpected loss, and unfortunately it was a very public loss, they were forced to grieve publicly because it was picked up by the press and it was picked up on social media and it was brutal, and nothing prepared them for that. So I share that really just to bring in circumstances and situations. I think that plays a big role as well. Like you expect your parents to pass. You don’t expect your children to pass before you.

00:43:53 Pam

Rosemary? I’m so grateful you shared that and I’m so sorry.

00:43:59 Rosemary

Thank you. It’s the loss, it’s the lot. It takes us to anticipatory grief in a way, but on a flip side because part of the grief when someone that young is killed is the loss of what could have been.

00:44:15 Pam

Absolutely the loss of what was, what could have been. Yeah. I spoke of having relief after my parents passed and the mixed emotions with that. And I can’t even speak to what that would have been like for your brother and your sister in law or Manisha, your experience with your sister. It’s so multifaceted at so many different levels. And to label grief as one thing would be to label one color of green or one color of purple.

00:44:48 Rosemary

I think it brings us back to a really core Compassionate Inquiry axiom, which is don’t keep it inside.

00:44:57 Pam

Oh, gosh.

00:44:58 Rosemary

Talk to people.

00:44:59 Pam

Yeah.

00:44:59 Rosemary

Lean into your community. Don’t worry about how what you’re sharing is landing so much. Pick the people who can handle it and don’t bottle it up. There may not be words. There may not be words at first, but just be with someone who feels safe. I’m sorry, Pam, what were you going to say?

00:45:19 Pam

I was going to say, I think it’s changing. I think we’re talking about it more. After my dad died, I asked my mom, do you want to talk to someone? The minister or… And she said like a therapist? And I said, whoever. And she’s like, “No, thank you. I’ll let you know when I want to speak to someone.” So again, that old thought of just wrap it up, put a pretty little bow on it and let everyone know that you’re okay because we don’t want to cause discomfort to anyone.

00:45:49 Rosemary

Yeah. And it’s so true. Part of the reason I struggled so much with my mom’s death is that my dad, he got married to his second wife less than a year later and declared that we shouldn’t speak about my mom. I hadn’t begun to go through my grieving at that point and being forbidden. He didn’t. It was kindly meant. He didn’t want to offend his wife with constant mentions. But my mom died in December 2004 and he was married in May 2006, and there wasn’t time… And he traveled a lot. He handled his grief by going on an extended tour to China. And there wasn’t time to speak, there wasn’t time to reminisce. And then all of a sudden it was cut off and I had to actually kidnap him once out of his wife’s company in order to have a conversation about mom, which I was desperate to have. So it…  conversation is so important, being able to share those memories, being able to speak about the person you’ve lost. And that kind of brings me to how we can support people going through grief, not avoiding speaking about the person who has passed, sharing stories, reminiscing. It may bring up tears. But Manisha, you referred.to. I’m not sure if you said healthy tears. That’s how I heard it. It’s a release. It’s a release because if we don’t release them, they stay in the body. So I wonder if we could shift to how we can be sensitive to people who are grieving, how we can take care of ourselves. Manisha, what would you like to offer in that realm?

00:47:40 Manisha

What I would like to offer… As I look back, I realize my parents and I feel so sorry that my parents would never deal with their grief, because we never, ever spoke about my sister. Her name was never mentioned. And as I was recently talking to a cousin, and she was like, we were too scared because we didn’t want to hurt them. And there’s so much fear around hurting somebody who’s already hurt. And I think that’s where we want to create safety and to be able to just allow the person to be. And that’s something I’ve realized that not trying to tell them, not guiding them, not giving them any advice, because that comes automatically. Don’t cry, it’s okay, they’re in a good place, so on and so forth, which is all true. But at that state, at that space, what is required is just for someone to just be there. And I do think you’re right, Rosemary. I’ve been thinking about it. Like, what is it that one needs to do to hold space? Because it is so difficult. It is… It’s a space of being helpless. So even you are helpless and that other person is helpless and in pain. It’s such a delicate place to be in. And this is where I think there has to be very intentional awareness around what level of safety, what is safety? Who are safe people? When you mention that, you need to be able to talk to a safe person. Who is safe in a state like this? Because one can come from the best of intention and say the worst thing ever. And that’s the question which even I would like to know. Like, how can we create that safety? And what I do is… right now is, as difficult as it is for me to just stay with someone who is grieving. To say all I can do is hold space and to watch them hurt is so difficult. And I have a friend who has lost a family member, dear family member. And it breaks my heart every time we bring up this topic. There’s nothing I can do. And she has to go through her own journey and I have to watch her struggle. And that’s very difficult. Yeah, good question. “What do you say to someone?”

00:49:45 Rosemary

Yeah. And sometimes speaking is not necessary. Like if I’m in physical presence, sometimes just giving someone a heartfelt hug, letting my body speak to theirs. And even then I’ve done that and got feedback later, as they let their anger move through them. It’s like you didn’t even offer me your condolences. And it’s like I couldn’t speak at that point. I would have turned into a mess had I tried to speak. But I could give you a hug and I did. And that was the best I could do. I was listening to my body. Pam, what would you like to add?

00:50:20 Pam

Yeah, I think in true Compassionate Inquiry form, trauma happens when we’re not seen, when we’re not witnessed. And as Manisha, as you were saying about when you ask someone or when you talk to someone about their loved one, it’s heartbreaking for them, but the heartbreak’s there. The heartbreak’s always there. Right?

00:49:29 Pam

And when we ask them about, you know, tell me about your mom, tell me about your sister, it’s giving space for this heartbreak to have a voice, to be witnessed, to be held. It’s my favorite thing is to talk… Besides my kids, of course, is to talk about my parents. I want people to ask me questions. I want to be able to talk about them now. And when you’re in that really raw space of just like in when we’re speaking time wise, of someone just passing, presence is what we need. That’s what we’ve always needed, is someone there who’s safe, non judgmental, compassionate and open. Like you said, Rosemary, at the beginning, before we started recording. Coming with an open heart and allowing them to show up however they are.

00:51:30 Rosemary

Yeah, thank you. And just listening. So many people, when my mom and dad passed were like, let me know if I can do anything. And I just had a funny thought. Some dialogue just popped into my mind. Let’s say I’m in Canada. I’m with a friend whose husband just passed and she said he used to take care of the car. I don’t know how to take care of the car. I don’t even have snow tires on. So something we could do is say, you know what, I’ll take care of that for you. I’ll get your snow tires put on for you. Just give me the details, I’ll get it done. So offering something specific that you know they need as opposed to saying, if I can do something, let me know because that puts the burden on them. And just letting them know you’re there and checking in. There are many people that show up around the time of death, around the time of funeral, but about two months later there’s crickets. It’s like, where did all the people go? And there’s loneliness that plays into grief as well. And it’s a loneliness like you can be lonely in a crowd of people and it’s the loneliness of losing the other, especially if it was a spouse or a child. I think this is a good time to segue into anticipatory grief because it even shows up. Pam, you were saying your daughter is heading off to college this fall and you’ll be an empty nester, odd as that sounds because we think we should be celebrating. Our kids are all launched, they’re all doing well. I’ve got the house back to myself. But it’s a little bit like menopause. We think we’re going to be delighted when we don’t have to deal with menses anymore, but there’s a grief. Yeah, let’s talk a little bit about anticipatory grief because it’s almost. There’s shame around that, isn’t there?

00:53:21 Pam

Oh God, so much shame. And it’s a cruel plan to have the perimenopausal menopausal stage happening at the same time as your kids leaving. That’s a double whammy there. And often people are dealing with aging parents at that time. It can be a shit show, I think, for lack of a better term. And my experience with anticipatory grief with my dad was that I thought, I’m going to do my grieving now so I don’t have to do it afterwards so that I can be of service to others, so I can, because I’ve got young kids at home, I have a husband, I’ve got a life, I’ve got a job. I’m. I’m going to grieve now. So that was my plan. It was the worst plan I’ve had ever. Because then it hit me hard because I thought, what the heck? He suffered for so long. This is a welcome passing. Right? So I shouldn’t be sad. It’s the same as anticipatory grief with like, my son’s in college, my daughter’s going to university. It’s the same as, I won’t be sad in September because I’ve done grieving now and we’ve checked all the boxes right? They’re. capable, they’re smart, got good heads on their shoulders, they’re kind people, they’re out doing their thing. Check, check. I shouldn’t be sad. And I just had a CI session this week about it because I’m hard on myself for being sad about it.

00:54:46 Rosemary

You’ve made such a great point here, Pam. As Gabor says, it all goes down in the mind. Elisabeth Kubler Ross on death and dying, the five stages of death and dying. Actually, she wrote a book as well, applying them to Grief. And it’s a nice, neat package. Our brains love it. Cognitively, it’s okay, I’m in this stage. And okay, the stages can juggle around. They don’t necessarily show up in order, but our brains love that. Unfortunately, it’s been totally debunked at this point. We do not all move through five stages in various orders. We do individually whatever we do. Manisha, I wonder if you’d like to comment. Anticipatory grief, stages, trying to manage our physiological grieving with our cognitive mind.

00:55:36 Manisha

Yeah, yeah. So cognitively you can plan it out and prepare yourself and talk to yourself and get it all right. But when it does eventually happen, none of that works. And it’s just then just staying with what comes up. And that is so difficult. And I have learned that you’ve just got to learn to hold space for both that duality. There is pain and there is a peace as well of them not having to suffer or whatever it is that you’ve told yourself to make yourself stronger for that moment. It is that level of helplessness as well, that there was nothing I could do, and that becomes heavy as well. But yeah, you’re right. You can never, ever prepare yourself. No matter what you do. It just does hit very differently in your body, in your heart.

00:56:25 Rosemary

It shows up however it will show up. Yeah.

00:56:28 Manisha

And it has to… That mind-body alignment then needs to be done.

00:56:34 Rosemary

Yeah. Thank you. I’m very aware that we’re coming to the end of our time together. And I wonder if we could just lean in a little bit more to leave our listeners with some support in terms of… We’ve talked about what you can do, which I think if I can summarize it and let me know if I missed anything, is just be fully present for whoever is grieving. Let them know that you’re there, offer to support them in ways that are really useful for them, and try not to trot out all of the trite sayings. Everything happens for a reason. They’re in a better place. I know when my mom died, I told my daughter – she was only 11… Grandma’s with God. She’s a star in the sky. I didn’t know what to say or avoid ‘at least’ statements. At least they weren’t here to witness this, or at least that’s not helpful. Also, don’t expect people to move on any sort of schedule. It’s, as we’ve just said, it’s individual. And don’t avoid talking about that person. Ask permission. Ask what they want. “I’ve been thinking about your mom who died and having so many happy memories. Is it okay if I share some of those with you? Are you comfortable hearing them?” So ask permission. What would either of you like to add as to what to avoid or what to lean into when you’re supporting a friend who’s grieving?

00:58:07 Manisha

Something I came across is, and I want to read that out. “Grief never leaves, but neither does love. They walk together now, hand in hand, teaching you how to live with an absence that is always a presence.”

00:58:23 Rosemary

Beautiful. If you can share that quote with me, I will put it in the show notes. Pam, did you have something you wanted to add?

00:58:30 Pam

Yeah, I heard this quote, and it’s actually from Andrew Garfield. He’s an American actor, and he was referring to when his mom passed. And he was saying that it’s. It’s all grief. He describes grief as all the unexpressed love. And that doesn’t go away. We don’t stop loving the people that have passed. So when we get these swells of emotion, to me, just a beautiful reminder of how much I loved my mom or how much I loved my dad or whoever you’re thinking of at that moment.

00:59:04 Rosemary

Thank you. Beautiful. We have a little bit of a ritual on the Gifts of Trauma podcast where we invite our guests to share. Manisha, you just shared a quote. You get a free pass. Unless you’d like to add something else. It could be a piece of wisdom, a quote, something that listeners can take away and contemplate, reflect on.

00:59:30 Manisha

When grief is suppressed, it doesn’t disappear. It finds another way to speak, often through the body. The question is not how to get over grief, but how to stay present with it without abandoning ourselves.

00:59:45 Rosemary

Beautiful, Manisha. Thank you. Pam, what would you like to share?

00:59:50 Pam

Yeah, I just wanted to share that there’s no right way to grieve. I believe there’s so many different personalities and cultures and religions and past experiences. And if we can honor grief as a legitimate emotion, just as much as sadness and anger and shame, then we can turn this experience that we’re having into our growth. We can turn it into our expansion and our healing as opposed to, like, contributing to our pain.

01:00:23 Rosemary

Thank you. Pamela Sommer. Manisha Billamoria. Thank you so much for being with us today on The Gifts of Trauma podcast.

01:00:32 Pam

Thank you so much, Rosemary. Thank you, Manisha.

01:00:35 Manisha

Thank you, Rosemary. And thank you, Pam. It is so lovely to meet you here.

01:00:41 Rosemary

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